Inside the Mind of a Creative Hustler: A Candid Chat with Andy Judd

Are you looking for hairstyling inspiration from someone who has built a successful career in the industry? In this exclusive interview, we sit down with Andy Judd, a Nashville-based hairstylist known for his creativity, business acumen, and ability to stay ahead of the trends. This conversation is packed with insights into the world of hairstyling, salon ownership, and personal branding.

From Ohio Roots to Nashville Hustle

Andy’s journey into hairstyling wasn’t exactly a straight shot. Originally from Hamilton, Ohio (fun fact: it’s officially written as Hamilton! with an exclamation mark—yes, really), Andy first pursued photography and advertising in college. However, his passion for hairstyling took over, merging his love for creativity with hands-on artistry. “I left school, and I had to 100% commit to this,” Andy shared. “It was a leap, but I just went for it.”

And he’s never looked back.

The Hustle, Growth, and Big Lessons

Like many stylists, Andy’s early years were filled with relentless hustle—working the front desk for free, balancing an apprenticeship with hair school, and making sure every opportunity counted. He quickly realized that being good at hair isn’t enough; learning the business side of hairstyling is just as crucial.

“Being good at hair doesn’t mean you’re going to be successful. Hustling is actually how you make it,” Andy told me, and that resonates with so many stylists. The first five years in the industry can be challenging, but Andy pushed through, participating in competitions, taking on creative projects, and building a personal brand that sets him apart.

Mastering the Art of Reinvention

One of the most inspiring things about Andy is his ability to evolve. After six years at Local Honey, an iconic Nashville salon, he recently made the leap to booth rental, stepping fully into self-employment. “I wanted to see what I could do on my own,” he explained. “I had already built my brand within a company, but now it was time to create something independently.”

For stylists considering a move to booth rental, Andy’s story is proof that strategic brand-building and industry knowledge make all the difference. He views hairstyling as an ongoing learning process: “If I don’t know something, I have to figure it out. It’s part of the fun.”

What’s Next for Andy Judd?

Right now, Andy is focused on fine-tuning his new workspace, creating stunning hair color transformations, and working on editorial shoots. His dedication to education and mentorship is also stronger than ever. “I had amazing mentors who shaped my career, and now it’s my turn to give back,” he said. “Instagram connected me with my mentors, so why not use it to help the next generation?”

Why You Need to Watch This Interview

This conversation with Andy is full of real talk about the hairstyling industry—pricing strategies, avoiding burnout, leveraging social media, and how to build a sustainable hairstyling career. Whether you’re a new stylist trying to establish yourself or a seasoned pro looking for fresh inspiration, Andy’s insights are invaluable.

📺 Watch the full interview video and learn from one of the best in the industry. You don’t want to miss it!

You can find Andy at:
https://www.andydoesyourhair.com/
https://www.instagram.com/andy_doesyourhair

Transcript

Liam Shea (00:01)
Well, hello. I’m here with Andy Judd and we’re going to have a little chat. Andy, do you want to start with telling us where you are, who you are?

Andy Judd (00:12)
Sure. Hi, I’m Andy. I’m based out of Nashville, Tennessee.

Liam Shea (00:18)
Okay. Have you been there for a long time?

Andy Judd (00:19)
So formal.

Around seven years now. yeah. Yeah, it’s longer than anticipated to be honest, but it’s worked out well. So.

Liam Shea (00:23)
Okay.

Yeah, that’s long enough. That’s many, years.

Was it meant to be as a short stop by and moving on to the next place or?

Andy Judd (00:37)
I think that was always the hope when I first moved here, but then it just kind of stuck and then career kind of like started going with it. And then we bought a house here. So we just feel pretty grounded, I would say.

Liam Shea (00:51)
Yeah,

yeah. Where did you originate? Where did you grow up? Where did you where were you before that?

Andy Judd (00:57)
I’m from a small town in Ohio, Hamilton, Ohio, kind of close to Cincinnati. Do you know it?

Liam Shea (01:01)
Okay. Yep.

I mean, I know of it. I’m a map nerd. I like places. I like knowing where everything is. So I tend to go and, you know, have long looks at maps as soon as somebody says where they are and figure out what the closest thing is and how to get there.

Andy Judd (01:08)
okay.

that’s cool.

It’s apparently like the only like city that has an exclamation point in the name. So that’s a fun fact. Yeah. It’s not written like that much anymore, but I don’t think they’ve legally changed it.

Liam Shea (01:27)
Awesome. I love fun facts.

No, but that means

when we’re done here I’m gonna go have to try and find out how that happened. That… was that a clerical error or was that a decision? That’s what I want to know. Amazing. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. How long have you been doing hair?

Andy Judd (01:40)
Hamilton with an exclamation mark. That’s what I was always told.

I think it was a decision. They just wanted to scream it.

Gosh, almost like 10 years now.

Liam Shea (01:56)
Okay. Yeah, that’s a long time, right? Yeah.

Andy Judd (01:59)
Yeah, so a decent amount of time. know it’s really flown by, which is

kind of a scary thing to even acknowledge that it’s been that long, but it’s been good. So I can’t complain.

Liam Shea (02:08)
Yeah,

you seem to have done well.

Andy Judd (02:11)
I feel like I dropped out of college to go into hair. So it was immediately like, what am I doing? I’m leaving school. I have to 100 % commit to this. This is like the decision I’m making. So I really just went at it and I haven’t really stopped. I took like my first actual vacation like this past like year. So like I’ve done a lot of work travels. Yeah, exactly. So I’m like, I’m kind of in my like, ooh, I get to like breathe for a moment.

Liam Shea (02:32)
That’s hustling.

Yeah, that’s actually one of the things I was going to discuss with you. I tend to talk to everyone about the same couple of things to begin with, which is, you know, the at the beginning of a career. I think we get really obsessed with being the best at a thing, but I don’t think most people know that hustling is actually how you’ll be successful. Being good at it doesn’t equal making money at it. When did you?

Andy Judd (02:56)
Yeah.

Liam Shea (03:07)
Were you always sort of a hustler in that way? sort of…

Andy Judd (03:13)
Yeah, yes, the answer is yes. But I would always get burnt out at the end of it. Like I would go really, really, really hard at things. My grandma was the secretary of fine arts, like in my high school. So I was always thoroughly involved in every single like musical thing that you could be a part of in my town. And so I was like doing, I like didn’t really do much with school as more as I did like my extra.

Liam Shea (03:31)
Yep. Yeah.

Andy Judd (03:41)
curricular things. I was like really engaged in everything else. And so I just, no, I mean, I liked it. I did well. didn’t like, it wasn’t a horrible experience for me, but I definitely focused on outside things and like thought that the more that I did, the more it would just push me in like a certain trajectory, which I do think has lasted.

Liam Shea (03:47)
School is not built for all of us.

Andy Judd (04:05)
into what I do now, I think I get hyper fixated on my like special interests and I just commit to them for a really long time. And then for some reason I like immediately switch, which I’m not going to what that hasn’t happened in my career yet. So let’s hope that doesn’t happen.

Liam Shea (04:21)
Right?

I mean, the great thing is there’s so many facets to this career, so many things you can do just within doing hair and even outside of doing hair from the business side to the photography side to the platform work to social media, which some of us are better at than others, you know.

Andy Judd (04:40)
No, exactly. I feel like I definitely, I ever get, ⁓ not bored, but if I ever feel like I want to explore something else, I’ll just like dive into something within the industry and just focus on that. I kind of view the industry as like a puzzle. And if I don’t know, like if I don’t have a puzzle piece or don’t know enough about it, I like always want to get to that next place.

Liam Shea (05:03)
awesome. Where did you go to hair school? Did you do an apprenticeship?

Andy Judd (05:09)
Yeah, I went to, I went to Cosmode school. I lived in Rochester, New York at the time. Cause that’s where I went to college for advertising, photography and photojournalism. And then I left a year and a half in because well, one, was like stupidly expensive and I don’t come from money and everybody in my classes like, were like the, after the first year they’re like, I’m going to New York or LA doing internships, just like living all.

Liam Shea (05:26)
Yes.

right.

Andy Judd (05:37)
But was like, okay, cool. I’m going to my home in Ohio where I like live with my great grandmother and my mom. And it just felt so different world to me. But then I was introduced, I was getting my haircut at a salon and like barbershop hybrid. And they did a lot of stage work and they kind of like showed me that the industry isn’t just.

Liam Shea (05:44)
Yes.

you

Mm-hmm.

Andy Judd (06:08)
taking clients, which there’s nothing wrong with that, but I didn’t know about that. And I didn’t also know that you could do a lot of photo-based things within the industry, which is what I was studying. I thought, why am I spending, you know, $40,000 plus a year to go to this school to get a BFA in fine art when my interests weren’t aligning me with being an actual photographer.

Liam Shea (06:18)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Judd (06:35)
so

I was like, well, this combines a lot of my interests. like talking to people. I, I love a makeover. think that’s, you know, always satisfying and fun. ⁓ I like to have a hand in fashion things and I used to sell makeup. I used to work at Ulta. So I was like, that’s a part of the industry as well. So it just kind of combined a lot of my interests. And so I just kind of dope like dive right into that. Dove right into that. I don’t know how you would say that, but yeah.

Liam Shea (06:41)
Yep.

Yes.

Dove right in? I think you

can say it however you want. Dove I think is correct, but what do I know? Yeah, it’s interesting how all of us end up getting into the industry. It’s rarely a straight line. Although that’s not entirely true. I think we meet a certain amount of people in hair school, certainly I did, that ended up there because I didn’t know what else to do. So they were just doing that as the, don’t think I can go to college, so I’ll do hair school.

Andy Judd (07:04)
Perfect.

Liam Shea (07:31)
which it’s tough because I think a lot of people think it’s easy and fail hard early because they’re kind of still in high school and they’re not ready to hustle and they don’t want to work it. It’s I mean it’s a lot of work especially well all the time but at the beginning it’s a lot of work.

Andy Judd (07:35)
Totally. Yeah.

Uh-huh.

The first five years of the career are by far the hardest.

Liam Shea (07:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It just rarely goes well in the first five or what you imagine going well would feel like with the hours that we end up working. And I I worked.

Andy Judd (08:00)
Yeah.

The amount

of no food as well is crazy.

Liam Shea (08:07)
I mean this yeah I mean

I’ve always said to myself if I ever open a legitimate salon I’m gonna try and undo some of that and I definitely see it being undone a lot in lots of industries I’m parallel to the restaurant industry and that’s less abusive the hair industry is less abusive as a whole but they’re still you still have to hustle if you want to make it you still have to work bizarre hours and yeah when did you ⁓

So you went to hair school in Rochester. Did you work there when you finished hair school?

Andy Judd (08:41)
I did, I graduated and then I was also, this is a really interesting situation because I was interning at the same time that I was in school, which I’ve never heard of an internship before by doing hair.

Liam Shea (08:54)
No, I mean you usually do an apprenticeship or you do cosmetology school.

Andy Judd (08:57)
Yes. So I was doing both,

but my, my apprenticeship internship was unpaid and it ended up just me working the front desk for free for like a year. ⁓ which is crazy.

Liam Shea (09:06)
Right. I will, well, but

I will say in no world should you ever have to work for free anywhere under any circumstances like that internship, unpaid internships are ridiculous. But the front desk work I did during my apprenticeship was so invaluable, like learning, learning how to do that.

Andy Judd (09:28)
It’s

true. I ultimately, you know, I didn’t, like I said, I didn’t come from money. So I didn’t have like expendable money to be able to just like do this. And all honesty, my great grandmother passed away and she left me like a small amount of money that I could live off of for like six months. And I ultimately, that’s what I did is I worked for free and I used any money that I had for rent.

Liam Shea (09:45)
Right.

Andy Judd (09:54)
until I couldn’t and then I left that space to work in an actual paid position. But I did learn a lot of things that I do kind of take me back to the beginning of my career and where I am now. I do think it was a really invaluable lesson for me in a lot of different ways. So I don’t regret it because I was fortunate enough to have that opportunity to be able to do that. But it was kind of like a very interesting thing.

Liam Shea (09:57)
Right? Right.

Sure.

Andy Judd (10:21)
I did ultimately leave that space to go to a paid position where the apprenticeship, yeah, right. was, was, was, you know, affording my rent, which is great. and also learning, and it was actually more hands-on than my first space was, ⁓ like every, like two days a week, we did classes. ⁓ and it was just me because, the owner of the space was just opening the salon. So I got to witness what it looked like to open a salon.

Liam Shea (10:25)
Good, I mean, mean, I hope so.

That’s awesome.

Andy Judd (10:51)
Cause he and I were the two stylists and then there was one person who was like in charge of

Liam Shea (10:51)
Amazing.

Andy Judd (11:01)
⁓ I want to say, it’s not the LLC obviously, but it’s the COO, the COO, yes. There we go. Letters.

Liam Shea (11:05)
With the financial side of things. Yep. Yep.

Yeah, they were just running the business side of thing.

Andy Judd (11:12)
Exactly.

But it was really cool because I got to like see, I got to connect with, they used Qune at the time and then they were building the salon. I got to see what it was like to build a relationship with a product company. Also what it looked like to build out a space. I very early on was able to see what that looked like, which I think was really beneficial to me. yeah, it was.

Liam Shea (11:19)
Yep.

Yes.

It’s so hard. I mean, it’s

so hard and it’s so rare to make it. It costs so much money to do that and figuring out how to cut corners and that must have been interesting.

Andy Judd (11:43)
Yeah.

It was, it was really insightful and I learned a lot. I don’t own a salon and I don’t know if I want to own a salon, at least right now, for sure. ⁓ but I do think if I ever wanted to, I know some of the steps of how I would go about it. ⁓ so that was cool. And then I moved back to Ohio. I ran out of money. Completely, I’m like, we’re fully like not, cause even when I was making a paycheck.

Liam Shea (11:54)
Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, well, as one does. Yep.

Andy Judd (12:17)
I got on the floor, I was working as a junior stylist and I was a commission based and the commission was, I think 60, 40. I was getting 40 % of, yeah, and I was like 25 or $30 for a haircut, which was really low. So it just wasn’t sustainable for me. And I was young, I didn’t really know better.

Liam Shea (12:30)
Okay. I had a feeling that’s what you would say.

No.

Andy Judd (12:48)
Um, and then it just kind of reached a point where I was like, I can’t do this. So I moved back to Ohio, probably worst time of my life. I felt like a complete failure. I dropped out of college. moved, um, I dropped out of college and stayed in that city because of these connections that I had when I could have just lived with family in Ohio and went to hair school there. So I was like, oh my gosh, I’m fully, fully just dropped the ball and everything that I had. Um,

Liam Shea (13:00)
Right.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (13:17)
moved into my dad’s basement. My dad and I also hadn’t talked for like seven years at that point. We were rebuilding a relationship. So that was like an interesting dynamic as well.

Liam Shea (13:22)
Good.

Living in

his basement is one way to rebuild that relationship, I guess.

Andy Judd (13:31)
Absolutely. It was

good. So it was good. But, ⁓ yeah, just crazy. But then I met my partner within the first week of moving here to Ohio and. was absolutely the correct thing. ⁓ met my partner, ⁓ somebody that he had worked with and he, worked out, he’s, he does hair as well. ⁓ and he was working at what I would consider to be one of the best salons in Cincinnati.

Liam Shea (13:40)
Wow. Well, so it was absolutely the correct thing.

Andy Judd (14:01)
especially like really art focused space. That’s actually how we met because I was interested in working at that space. I never did because we didn’t want to cross that line, especially, or speaking of our relationship.

Liam Shea (14:09)
Right. No? It’s a good idea. It’s

hard enough to be in the same industry, let alone the same.

Andy Judd (14:17)
Yeah, which

the beginning of the relationship was like, let’s not, let’s not do that. but one of his old coworkers had actually opened a salon in my hometown, ⁓ in the building where I used to get my hair cut as a kid. and so I applied there and then I started working there. ⁓ and it was lovely.

Liam Shea (14:27)
Okay.

wow, okay.

Amazing. And then how long were you there for? Okay. Okay. Why Nashville?

Andy Judd (14:40)
Yeah.

and half years and then we moved to Nashville together.

⁓ so we moved to work at local honey. ⁓ we’ve been friends, friends of not friends, but we were fans of Brian. Now we’re Hickman who, you know, has a great photo. I does really, he, was doing what I wanted to do in the industry really. ⁓ and I was very intimidated, but we applied, they hired us both together and then we were there for six, six and.

Liam Shea (15:03)
Yes.

Right.

Andy Judd (15:19)
over six years and I just now left to be booth rental. Yeah. It’s good. It’s been a month and a half. It’s recent.

Liam Shea (15:24)
amazing and how has that transition been? Were you were you that’s that recent okay I didn’t

I knew you were making a change I didn’t know it was that recent so were you commissioned at local honey okay and so this is your first self-employment

Andy Judd (15:37)
I was, yes.

It is, and I’m really enjoying it. you know, local honey was lovely. I can’t get

Liam Shea (15:44)
Yeah. You were

already doing it. I mean, you weren’t from a tax perspective, but the way I’ve seen you running your business from a client facing perspective and an industry facing perspective, it looked from the outside as if you were already doing all the things a self-employed person would do as far as putting yourself in a position to grow your business to wherever you want it to be.

Andy Judd (16:12)
Thank you.

Liam Shea (16:13)
seems like

a natural progression to me. think

Andy Judd (16:15)
Thank you.

I really appreciate that. Cause it was really a big focus on making sure that I had my own individual brand within whatever company that I worked at. Honestly, because I didn’t know if Nashville was going to be my forever home. And I wanted to be able to utilize a tool to be able, if I wanted to move anywhere to at least be able to have some familiarity to be able to find work easier. That’s like where that.

Liam Shea (16:24)
Yes.

Andy Judd (16:45)
thought process came from. then recently moving into booth rental, kind of how I mentioned it, the industry is a puzzle to me. I didn’t know much about being booth rental and what that side of the industry looked like. And I know there’s a lot of debate over which is better and people feel strongly about different ways of how to approach it, but it just felt like a natural progression for where I was. I think when you’re

Liam Shea (16:46)
Yeah.

and better.

Andy Judd (17:12)
with a brand that is well known for a long time and you’re making a part of like creative decisions for that brand that your viewpoint can get exclusively associated with someone else’s business. And I think it was a lovely time for me to see what I could do on my own and then with my partner, Joe, to create something together. So that’s kind of the journey we’re on right now and it’s been really fun.

Liam Shea (17:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yep, yeah, I can see that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s amazing.

Andy Judd (17:40)
We’re doing our first photo shoot solely independently together in eight days. So I’m very excited about it.

Liam Shea (17:46)
Amazing.

I mean, you’ve done an impeccable job with your personal brand because when I started following you, and I can’t remember how many years I’ve been following you, but when I started following you, I wasn’t aware that you were connected to Brian. Like I just was aware of you as a brand on its own. Eventually I became aware of it and I think part of that had to do with I didn’t know Local Honey and Brian.

Andy Judd (18:09)
Thank you.

Liam Shea (18:15)
were the same thing at first. I’d heard of local honey. I knew who Brian was. I didn’t know those were the same thing. Yes.

Andy Judd (18:16)
Totally.

Well, he’s also done a great job at

creating a individual brain for himself within a company as well.

Liam Shea (18:28)
Yeah,

it’s a difficult thing to do. So I feel like you’ve already mastered the things that are actually the hardest. It might not be the things that are hardest for you. Like, you know, I think the financial stuff can seem really intimidating at first.

Andy Judd (18:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, I’m

a little curious about taxes this year, but we’ll figure it out.

Liam Shea (18:50)
It really isn’t, I mean, just get someone that knows what they’re doing on your side and you just put money aside. Like it’s not incredibly complex. If you don’t put money aside and then have a tax bill that’s larger than you can handle, it’s intimidating, right? And yes, there’s always little things you don’t know.

Andy Judd (19:01)
Yeah.

All the way.

Liam Shea (19:11)
But that’s the great benefit of moving to booth rental and not just opening a salon immediately. Even though you have built out your little space, haven’t, you’re not in charge of weird leasing laws that the building you’re in have and permits to the same degree. Yeah, that’s awesome. It is. And I think it’s why, like in the Rochester space that you were talking about, why it’s so great to have

Andy Judd (19:29)
Right. Exactly. think that would be so overwhelming. Yeah.

Liam Shea (19:41)
that person as your partner in a business that does that right like yeah

Andy Judd (19:45)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. think if, yeah, there’s no way that I could do a salon and do all of the creative work and then also the background of it and then also create like still sustain your own individual brand or education platform. There’s no way. Yeah.

Liam Shea (19:56)
No.

No. No. Well, no one can. It’s not just

that you’re not adept at that or something. It’s that you can’t do all those things at once well. You can do them all at once poorly. Anybody can do them all at once poorly. Absolutely. Yep. You can develop a disease, all sorts of things that you can do from that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Judd (20:12)
Totally. Or you can burn out and not have a social life, but there’s something that I’m not interested in doing at the moment.

Right.

Liam Shea (20:26)
So we first met what last year at the Hairbrained Video Awards through Erin and Annie the Hair Nerds whom we love and adore here at Salon Monster. We are huge huge huge fans of. How was that? That’s right was that amazing?

Andy Judd (20:36)
love. I went to Japan with them.

It was great.

It was amazing. Yeah, it was absolutely fantastic. We actually extended the trip by four days. We were there and we’re like, not leaving. Yeah.

Liam Shea (20:49)
course she did. I mean

I think every time I talk to both of them, but Annie in particular, she’s always disappointed to come back. They would like to stay there permanently some of the time. I don’t know. I haven’t been, but it strikes me as one of the most different places that you can go. Yeah, I’d love to spend some time there. I like to go with them.

Andy Judd (21:01)
⁓ it’s lovely. It’s lovely.

Yeah, honestly, it was amazing. It was really good. And it was my first time in Japan. And I think going with them who have an understanding of how to get around and somebody to help guide you with that and having that resource made it so easy. ⁓ and just felt safe to the point then we just kind of explored on our own and picked it up pretty quick to the point where I now know I feel confident that if I go back, I can just

do it and feel good about it. It was a really good entry way. Yeah, that was lovely. You should go. We should all go.

Liam Shea (21:47)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ absolutely.

It’s on the list. My wife is a sommelier and several years ago was the wine and sake director at a really fantastic restaurant in Vancouver called, I’m just forgetting, Kisatanto it’s called. It’s a Japanese Italian restaurant.

her knowledge of sake exploded at the time so i really want to both get over there so we can get the we get the fun the fun invites to like the places i wouldn’t know about otherwise yeah it will happen it’ll absolutely happen yeah exactly yeah ⁓ are you ⁓ in are you doing the hairbrain video awards this year i guess you don’t yeah

Andy Judd (22:19)
Yeah, that’s the perfect excuse.

One day. I’m excited for you.

Yeah, I mean, I’ve, I’ve entered.

so nothing’s been announced or anything like that. knock on wood, hopefully. ⁓ yeah, we’ll see. I would, I would love to.

Liam Shea (22:42)
Right.

Were you involved in competitions right away in here?

Andy Judd (22:53)
Yeah, I was. When I was in hair school, I did the Naha Beacon student competition where you had to make a three-person, three-individual image collection, which is very Naha. Other concepts are very similar to that. So I did that immediately, like six months into my career that I was creating something and I’ve consistently built collections.

Liam Shea (23:11)
Yes.

Wow.

Andy Judd (23:23)
to the point where I view almost everything I do even behind the chair as like a mini collection of here’s where my interest is right now. Obviously, obviously I don’t just like deposit whatever I want to do onto every single person, but I do take a lot of models and I’m fortunate enough to work with a color company that gives me a lot of wiggle room to create whatever I want to create. So I do take models and I have more of that individual expression.

Liam Shea (23:44)
Yep. Yeah.

I understand.

Andy Judd (23:51)
Yeah, I’m

Liam Shea (23:52)
mean.

Andy Judd (23:52)
not just like, you get this and only this.

Liam Shea (23:56)
When I was coming up, I’ve been

doing hair for 25 years now, and when I was coming up in the industry, the amount of platform artists that were that person, you would come in and you’d ask for a thing and then they’d just give you what they felt like doing. I mean, it happened all the time, all the time. And they would just be like, well, you you shouldn’t have seen a platform artist. couldn’t, I never quite understood that. I was lucky enough to train primarily under someone that was…

Andy Judd (24:11)
Crazy.

Liam Shea (24:24)
incredibly gifted at hair but was service first. I remember one of his first rules with me was I wasn’t allowed to do the barber thing where you turn a person away from a mirror. You know, when I started to learn about fades and dealing with clipper work, I started to realize the mirror was a tool, but at that point, I wasn’t even allowed to use clippers. It was only scissor over comb. I wasn’t allowed to touch them. And so the rule was I had to keep them facing the mirror at all times or

Andy Judd (24:27)
Yeah.

okay.

Okay.

Liam Shea (24:51)
you’re telling them you don’t want them to see what you’re doing. But anyways, he was just really service focused. luckily his education was more about bring somebody in, they tell us what they want and I’ll teach you how to learn how to do that as opposed to bring someone in and will. Because I did a certain amount of Sassoon education as well from an ex Sassoon instructor and he was more go find somebody, tell them they’re going to get a free haircut and then give them whichever Sassoon haircut I’ve decided we’re doing today. So I hope you wanted to.

one length bob because that’s what you’re getting even though your hair is down to your waist or something like that.

Andy Judd (25:23)
Right.

Right

or like your texture might not like be suitable for that the way you wear your hair is it’s all about suitability Yeah

Liam Shea (25:29)
gonna look awful. Yep. Yep. Yes. What’s

that you have really coily ringlity hair? Cool. I’m gonna use a Denman brush to blow dry it straight. It’s gonna look great. No one could. Yeah. Anyways, I loved that. That stuff was amazing. Yeah. Did you find competition work? I mean, obviously it helps you from an artistic perspective and clearly you came with that lens from the get go because that was already your lens. Did you find from a technical perspective?

Andy Judd (25:39)
and you’re never gonna do it like that. It’s never gonna look like this. You’re right.

Liam Shea (25:58)
It was helpful education wise.

Andy Judd (26:01)
I did. Absolutely I did, I feel like.

I would always want to create something that I didn’t know how to do. And so I would just figure out how to do it. It’s really funny that I do like a lot of bangs now, just like the thing that I would say that like I get requested a lot. And that was my least favorite thing to do at first, but I wanted to know how to do them. But I remember in my very first collection, one of my models was one of my really good friends in college. And we went to go to cut her bangs and she’s like, are you okay?

you feel confident? Because she knew that I was like, I had messed her bangs up before, know, in her bathroom, you know, and I remember the owner of the first space that I worked at hearing that and like, being amused by that concept. And I was so embarrassed and just like, I need to figure this out.

Liam Shea (26:41)
yeah.

Yeah.

It was the same for me. I don’t think I was taught how to do bangs. I just did them poorly often and through eventually like don’t do that. That’s a lot of tension. Don’t do that next time. Yeah.

Andy Judd (27:11)
Yes. And then you learn. Right. huh.

You wanted them up here? Okay, perfect.

Liam Shea (27:22)
Yeah, yeah, sorry that you

actually just wanted feist bangs down to here and I gave you micro bangs Whoops. Yeah. Yeah, and so it was a lot of trial and error There’s a bunch of things that I think lots of us don’t get taught early on but it’s really nice when you get it, isn’t it?

Andy Judd (27:28)
Exactly. Yeah, we’ve all been there.

Yeah, I think it starts to click, you know? And then when I figured out…

portion of what I knew how to do or felt confident in. It would then break down of, okay, what’s the next part of what I don’t know how to do, but what have I learned from this that I could translate to this? And it was a really big thing of, when I actually applied at Local Honey, I had really never done a full highlight. I came from like a painting background, so that always felt natural to me. But with my technical interview, I had to do a traditional full highlight.

Liam Shea (28:10)
Right.

Andy Judd (28:12)
And it was literally like my first one I’ve ever done, which is so crazy. and I was so anxious and nervous about it ended up being fine, but now I do so many foils, ⁓ and like creative foil placements where I, just broke down how I would do this haircut that I’m doing. And I would take like almost the exact same sectioning for how to do that. Cause I knew where the hair would lay and then I would create the color placement based on that. And

Yeah, so it’s just like an ever elution evolution.

Liam Shea (28:43)
It’s

so fun when you start to get that stuff. When I was starting, there were still a lot of people doing cap highlights. Like foil highlights had only been around for so long. So even when I did my exam, my cosmetology exam, they had just started asking questions about highlighting. And I remember somebody came around and they said, could you show me a highlight? And I said, know, do you want a slice or a weave? And they said, nevermind, that’s fine.

Andy Judd (28:52)
yes.

Liam Shea (29:12)
Like just because I knew the difference between those two things. That’s good. You pass. Cool. my God. That’s it. Yeah. It was still mostly roller sets and, and perm, perms and yeah. I understand better now why you do that still. Like I get why you do that still, but yeah.

Andy Judd (29:16)
Wow.

Wow.

That’s still what technical first dates are.

Yeah.

Totally. Yeah, yeah. The whole school thing is a really interesting, especially in the States with the state individual basis. It’s… Okay.

Liam Shea (29:40)
Yeah.

We have the same thing here and

it’s deregulated in the province that I’m in. A few years after I got in, it was deregulated. So there is a license you can get, but it’s optional. You don’t have to have it to legally do hair. It’s so, it’s super bizarre. Yeah, you can just do hair.

Andy Judd (29:49)
okay.

Mm-hmm

Wow, okay.

Crazy. Yeah, there’s a lot of crazy things at school. I had to go to three, because I’m licensed in three states. And I had to, when I moved to Tennessee, I was licensed in New York and Ohio. New York first transferred to Ohio. I just had to take the written and practical. When I moved to Tennessee, three and a half years in, I had to have five year work experience to be able to transfer my license. So they made me go back to hair school when I first moved here.

Liam Shea (30:08)
It’s so crazy.

So, I mean, I understand each state having their own licensing, but you actually have to take the exams again?

Andy Judd (30:40)
Mm-hmm

Yes. So New York went to school there, took their written and practical exams, moved to Ohio. Ohio is, their reciprocity is like, New York is a thousand hours. ⁓ Ohio is 1500 hours. But if you have a, when you transfer in, if you just do the test out, you’re good. But Tennessee doesn’t recognize the test out unless you have five year work experience or originally 1500 hours.

So I moved with two licenses, one of them being equivalent to 1500 hours, but they didn’t recognize that license. So it was like, didn’t have an Ohio license at all and they only tracked me back to a thousand hours. So I had to go to a hair school that would accept me going for 500 hours. There was only one and it was a, like, wasn’t like Aveda or like Palm Beach or anything, cause they don’t accept transfer hours. So it was, and of course they don’t cause they want the money.

Liam Shea (31:37)
Of course I don’t. Why would you? Yes.

Andy Judd (31:42)
And it was like at this community college, all of the color that they had was expired by over four years. The like amount of disinformation that was being like taught there, it was absolutely insane. And I had to go there for 500 hours and…

hang out. Honestly, it was bad. kind of, I would get there early, I clock in and then I would leave and then I did. I it was bad. Maybe don’t include that, but yeah.

Liam Shea (32:05)
school.

I don’t

think they’re gonna care one way or another. I don’t think they’ll listen. But hair school, I get the for business scam part of it, but why it also has to not be good at the same time is a touch beyond me. Like you could be, you could say we require you do more schooling here if it was good.

Andy Judd (32:17)
Yeah.

Totally.

Is it?

Liam Shea (32:39)
you know, we recognize our standards. Like for instance, in the province I live in, they have the most difficult to get licensing to be a registered massage therapist because it’s about three years of school, one more year and you basically have a biology degree, right? Like you just add a year to it you’re almost at a biology degree. Is that necessary to do massage? I don’t know, I’m not an expert on it.

Andy Judd (32:57)
wow, OK.

Liam Shea (33:06)
But at least its standards are based on wanting to be the best and not, well, you haven’t paid us yet, so you probably need to come and pay us a little bit. And then they’re not good. I did six weeks of hair school to prep for my exam because I did a true apprenticeship that was all in salon. Obviously, we weren’t doing any of the stuff that was on the exam. I wasn’t getting to do roller sets, perms.

Andy Judd (33:16)
Exactly, pay us and sit in this room.

Liam Shea (33:33)
You know, there were two or three perm clients left at the salon, but I wasn’t going to get to do their perm. ⁓ so I went and prepped at a hair school and I ended up teaching that whole six weeks because I got there and was like, no, wait, what has nobody taught you how to make eye contact with the client or wash hair or. Like you don’t even have to be good. Just learn how to give a great scalp massage and make people like you and you’ll be successful. You’ll be good eventually. Don’t worry about that part.

Andy Judd (33:37)
Right.

Right.

Liam Shea (34:01)
No one’s great. Very few people are great immediately. Just make people like you and you’ll win. Yeah. Did you… So one of things I always like to ask people about is mentorships, because I feel like finding mentors can be so helpful in making or breaking it in this industry. Did you… How did you sort of find mentors? I know you talked about the salon you went to in Rochester.

Andy Judd (34:07)
Right.

Mm-hmm

Yeah,

the first space, I was just getting my haircut there. And a lot of photo students collaborated with the salon on creating imagery. So it was a pretty well-known space in the area. Then from there, how did I find out about Ben? I’m sure it was Instagram related. I’m sure I just saw his work on Instagram and…

reached out, maybe I saw that he was posting like a hiring thing and reached out. I’m going to guess it was something like that. ⁓ but I think it was just really perfect timing because it was just he and I working together for a while. ⁓ then I moved to Ohio met found, ⁓ this one I was working at there through my partner and then moved to local honey. And then now at holiday. Yeah. So in online.

Liam Shea (35:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Awesome. Yeah.

Andy Judd (35:28)
Instagram. Instagram brought me basically all my mentors and my partner, so it’s fun.

Liam Shea (35:29)
Yeah.

Yeah,

you came up at a really interesting time, like coming up pre-Instagram, was such a different, you had to know someone that knew someone. There was no, you didn’t know who they were unless somebody told you who they were. There were a few DVD and before that VHS sets that would come out from product companies that would have education where you’d see people. You oh, who’s that? And you know, everybody knew whoever was running,

Andy Judd (35:42)
Right.

Listen.

Liam Shea (36:01)
Sassoon, was running Bumble and Bumble, whoever was running Tony and Guy at the time. Like you knew the big names and then you’d know them from hair shows. Everybody knew the like Paul Mitchell crew that used to put on a very popular active show at hair shows, but there was none of this. What would you say to somebody that was just coming up and wanting to find a mentor? What would you tell them?

Andy Judd (36:28)
Yeah, I mean, I would guess I would just like say do your research of like what their work looks like and what you resonate with and who embodies what you would want to do in your career, at least at that point. And sometimes people who do what you would want to do might not be taking apprenticeships, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be friends with them or just like have coffee with them on a regular basis.

let them know, because there’s many ways to be a mentor to somebody. And I don’t think you have to directly work with them on a daily basis to be able to learn from those people. I would also say don’t limit yourself to only one person because there’s many viewpoints on how to do something and how to run a business and how to be successful. And that can mean so many different ways to so many different people and get as many perspectives as possible. But ultimately I feel like trial and error of your own viewpoint is going to be.

ultimately the most important. I feel like it takes a minute to get to that, like realization into that thought process. You have to have a foundation and build on that. ⁓ but I think being able to look at something that you really love and say, how do I do that? But how would I do that? My own way is how, what has changed my thinking about creating a perspective on hair and doing something unique ish because

And the reality is like a haircut is a haircut. You’re not inventing anything new, no matter what you do anymore. It’s about the way that you are consistent with it and you build your perspective and your touch that people can start to develop and have a sense of that and also document it. Even if you don’t like it, just document it and put it out there.

Liam Shea (37:58)
Yes, agreed, yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (38:23)
I like if you scroll back all the way through my Instagram, the very beginning is all mannequin heads and it’s like wand curls because I was learning how to use a curling iron, you know, but like that’s from doing that. got many people to book blowouts with me and that was a beginning part of my career. it just.

Liam Shea (38:30)
Right. Yeah.

Andy Judd (38:45)
just start and don’t be afraid to like actually try it and put that out there. I mean, I do think the terrain is going to look a little different, ⁓ because we don’t always know exactly what’s going to be the future with social media, to be honest. ⁓ so we have to, it’s going to, it’s going to change again. And I do think listening and talking to people in the industry who have been successful before.

Liam Shea (38:56)
Yeah? Yeah.

Andy Judd (39:14)
social media is going to be something that is really critical for what the future is going to look like. Because people did have successful businesses and built a brand for themselves before we had the ability to kind of market ourselves.

Liam Shea (39:25)
Yes.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (39:37)
I think that’s going to be an important thing in the future.

Liam Shea (39:39)
Yeah. It’s also gotten saturated. I remember Andrew somebody, he’s a photographer and a hairdresser.

Andy Judd (39:49)
Are you talking about Andrew Does Hair? Yeah. We work at local honey. We work together for a bit. Yeah.

Liam Shea (39:51)
Yeah, Andrew does hair. I remember him having… that’s right.

That’s right. Love him. And I remember him talking… Somebody was asking him about, you know, how do I get as successful as you through social? And he was saying, you know, the problem is, you know, he like myself was on Instagram at the beginning of Instagram. I wasn’t doing hair related stuff and I should have been.

But like getting to 10,000 followers in 2012 wasn’t particularly difficult because there was no algorithm, right? The feed was chronological. If you followed someone, you saw when you open up Instagram, you just saw the most recent posts from your followers in chronological order. There was no, ⁓

Andy Judd (40:39)
Right.

Liam Shea (40:45)
what type of post do I have to do to hope that the meta algorithm places me in front of all 11 people that maybe are going to be on in that brief moment. It was just, so if you just posted all the time, you were absolutely being seen by your audience. And then they would tell someone, they would still had a word of mouth effect along with, or you would go see who someone follow is. You can’t go and look at the, know, 1200 people you, what is it?

Andy Judd (40:51)
Right.

Liam Shea (41:12)
So you follow what 4,350. I can’t scroll through all 4,300 people that you follow to try and find the person. But at the beginning, when you followed 75 people, I could go and see, 30 of those I’d like to follow. So you’re right. Talking to people who are doing it before social media can help even while social media is around, because it’s so much more difficult to get in front of people. If you’re starting now, like it’s one thing.

Andy Judd (41:38)
system.

Liam Shea (41:41)
with your audience where it’s at now and when you started. I don’t know when you started your account, but I assume it was pretty early on.

Andy Judd (41:48)
It was like 28, 28, 12. Yeah.

Liam Shea (41:49)
Yeah, right.

So that same kind of thing where it was like, was a lot easier to get that first 10,000 followers in 2012. Now two or 3000 followers is really good. Like that is what you’re going to get. It’s going to be really, it’s going to require some sort of freak viral something or other like, you know, hair hair by Goldie on Tik Tok or something like that where, right? Where you’re like, oops.

Andy Judd (42:02)
Yeah.

I also, right. And it depends on what

you’re creating. Like what’s the marketability and what’s like, how niche are you or how broad are you wanting the attention? Because also there, you know, people who are catering to like media for the masses, not necessarily for hairdressers or for potential clients are opening themselves up to a level of scrutiny that

is not something I personally want. And it also creates a lot of mistrust and disinformation about hairstylists in general, especially when it’s for being created as like a shock. know, there’s always like something that’s going to draw you in and it’s typically controversial. You don’t really have to…

Liam Shea (42:44)
No.

Yeah. Yes.

Yes.

Yes, a bold click-baity statement. requires like,

I might not even agree with it, but I’m gonna say it, because you’re gonna click through. Maybe I’ll write in my second comment that it’s actually not my opinion, but it doesn’t say it in the photo or the… Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Judd (43:17)
Exactly. It’s meant

to get some type of response, typically a negative response and

Liam Shea (43:21)
Yeah.

Andy Judd (43:25)
It’s just, I don’t have an interest.

Liam Shea (43:26)
Well,

they’re quantifiably a more effective way to get like negative is 100 % quantifiably a more effective way to get people to react. just is, I don’t like that. I also see a…

Andy Judd (43:38)
Absolutely.

No, I don’t either.

And then, I mean, people, I mean, that can build your following though, because then basically if somebody disagrees with the people who are being negative about it, they’re going to rally behind you and support you. But it feels like a game to me. And it’s something that,

Liam Shea (43:46)
Sure. Yes.

Yes.

Andy Judd (43:58)
Playing a game for me is specifically something I was kind of always advised to do throughout my career was like make the right moves, you know, be smart about your decision making, kind of cater to, you know, you have to play the game. And that’s actively something that I’m trying to step away from in my thinking and just allowing myself to be and see what happens with it.

Liam Shea (44:05)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (44:28)
just create for the sake of creating and going from there. Specifically, I mean, you’re talking about competitions and I think I’m going, I entered Herbrand awards. But I think that’s the only thing I’m going to enter this year. I kind of want to just like, why am I, it’s something I struggle with, you know, cause I’m creating ultimately at the end of the day for me. I like competitions because it gives me a parameter of what to create and guide to do something. But why am I also

Liam Shea (44:53)
Yep. Yep.

Andy Judd (44:58)
doing that. It begs the question of like, it for validation purposes? Is it for potential opportunities? All of those are great. But I think if I focus solely too hard on that, then I’m looking for outside justification and I’m not looking for inner justification. And that becomes a negative cycle.

Liam Shea (44:59)
Yes.

Yeah.

When

can that be achieved? You know what mean? Does that actually exist? I mean, maybe for a minute, maybe on a post.

Andy Judd (45:23)
Exactly.

Very temporarily, but then if something else you do doesn’t also receive that type of, you know, exactly. And that’s a whole thing that I have to start stepping away from and just focus more on like the internal and smaller side of the business, which is just me, my clients.

Liam Shea (45:33)
Yeah. What’s wrong with you as a person at that point?

Andy Judd (45:52)
the space that I provide for them and still creating art and a viewpoint within that, but not seeking necessarily what comes next. Which I’m saying, as I’m saying this, I’m also debating in my head about it because it’s scary because let’s be real, financially and opportunity wise, I know I’m not gonna be able to do a hair behind the chair exclusively my entire life.

Liam Shea (45:54)
Yes.

What comes next? Yes. Yeah.

Andy Judd (46:21)
Like I’m already, 10 years in, I just turned 30, which is, you know, like whenever, but I already noticed the changes in my body from doing it for so long. have bad habits that I do with my body at work and that is going to catch up with me. And so what is my exit plan of being able to be behind the chair? Then I think about all of the other avenues I can go into and it kind of, that’s always been my like why.

Liam Shea (46:26)
Yes.

Andy Judd (46:51)
really for like building an Instagram following or whatever. Now I’m just like, I need to chill. I need to focus on like my local community. I need to focus on myself. And then if I continue to just post and just have fun with it for my own purposes, anything that comes from that will come from that and it will feel more organic and less stress. Yeah, that’s my bet.

Liam Shea (46:52)
Yeah.

That’s amazing.

No, that’s great. No, no, no. I love that. And I love that you said to me the magic words that don’t get taught at the beginning of careers in this industry or a lot of industries, particularly creative, which is exit strategy.

When you do a job like this, the hustle required to get busy is immense. And it takes a physical toll. I mean, I understand we’re not working in a coal mine. I get that, but it takes a physical toll and an emotional toll. And there’s a limited quantity of people that are capable of doing that in perpetuity, like late into life. I mean, I’m 45 and I do hair two days a week.

Andy Judd (48:02)
Mm-hmm.

Liam Shea (48:03)
two and a bit and then I do this salon monster the rest of the time and that’s great. I don’t want to have to do hair more than that. I could do three if I had to. I mean obviously I could do more. When I was last doing hair five days I stopped loving it and it was reflected in my work so I cut to four days and that was a huge change for me. Did you…

Has there been a time up to this point where you’ve had that kind of change where you’ve like shifted it by just a little bit? Like it sounds like this is that right now.

Andy Judd (48:38)
So yes, but I’ve actually picked up a day since being, ⁓ since moving to booth rental. I was three days a week, behind the chair. And then I had an admin day, kind of like what you’re doing your schedule. ⁓ but now that I don’t have my admin job, ⁓ I, except for independently, ⁓ I now am, yeah, but it’s, I’m my own boss. I.

Liam Shea (48:40)
Yes.

Yes, you still do, but yes. Yep.

Andy Judd (49:07)
and four days a week behind the chair, but I’m only five hours each day and I have a scheduled lunch every single day, which I’ve never had my entire career. And then I will do a model day. So some days I’m behind the chair for five days a week. If moving to a new space, I mean, what is like the statistic is like 20 to 25 % of people won’t follow immediately.

Liam Shea (49:33)
Yes.

Andy Judd (49:34)
So I am a little slower right now. Also just, it’s been a weird year in terms of a lot of my clientele has moved away from Nashville within the past year and a half. So it’s a, it’s a rebuilding season for me. So I have more time to be able to take a model on a day that I work if nothing books up that week or on that day of the week, which I’m not mad by because I’m still able to create. And I have my price point set to where I’ll be able to make what I need to make to be able to support myself. But.

Liam Shea (49:43)
A lot of

Andy Judd (50:03)
I’m not in a hustle, hustle, hustle, crazy experience at the moment. So it’s a change for sure.

Liam Shea (50:13)
You just talked about price point, is another thing I wanted to bring up briefly, and I’m also cognizant of time, so we don’t have to… Okay.

Andy Judd (50:20)
I’m good. Yeah.

Liam Shea (50:25)
I’ve been, I have a friend, Britt, who rents my chair three days a week and then works at a barbershop the other two days a week. And I started talking to Britt when she first got out of hair school, which is really only 18 months ago, and let her use my chair for free for a little bit to help her build. Cause I had a feeling she started, she’s, I think she’s your age. So she started at that point. And I said, you’re probably not going to love.

being an adult and doing the beginning process at a commission salon, right? Like, I think it really helps to be ignorant of how you should probably be treated and what is a good idea. And so I tried to help her with that and I talked to her a lot early on. She was cutting hair out of her kitchen for 15 bucks a haircut and I was saying, like, you can’t, how do you get that number to?

the number that’s sustainable to live in a city is expensive as this, what, $5 a week increase? Like, so you need to get up. So with somebody new coming into the industry, what would you say to them about pricing? Obviously, you can’t charge $100 an hour straight out of school, but what would your advice be on how to charge correctly, whatever that would mean?

Andy Judd (51:47)
and

That’s tough one, right? It’s a tough one because it’s also so variable in terms of like, you in a commission? Are you apprenticing also and like taking clients a certain number of days or what does your situation look like? But I do think as a whole, undercharging for a service only hurts every single person in the industry. So when someone’s doing a $15 haircut at home,

Liam Shea (51:53)
I know.

Yes. Yep.

Yeah.

Yes.

Andy Judd (52:22)
that’s actually saying to a clientele base of your local community that hair should only be this much worth it, because you’re probably talented and you’re doing good haircuts on them and they’re enjoying it. So they’re becoming the expectation that that’s what the price point is. And everybody else who’s charging different than that is out of their mind. But then when that person who’s charging the $15 for their home moves into a space, starts actually realizing, oh, I am creating something that is worth, you know.

not $15, more than that. That then has to shift the clientele mindset of what is a haircut and how much would that cost or what is a service. you know, I think undercharging is really detrimental, but I think overcharging when you first come out, you have to know what you’re creating and your work has to reflect that.

And not only your work has to reflect that, your service and your environment also has to reflect that. I know people who do very foundational haircuts that are solid. They’re good, but they’re not exploring the most creative side of the hair industry. That charge more than I do because they’re in a space where they feel like they’re providing a really lovely experience and,

relationship and service for these people that that makes it worth it for them to spend whatever they’re spending on that. I think you need to know where your space is. Think of what you’re providing and in terms of

service and space, and then also what work your technical level is out. So I don’t know. think figuring those out and having insight from what other people look up what other people charge in your area. ⁓ like what is the most expensive haircut in your area? What type of work do they do? What type of work do you want to do? What is the most expensive person in your area charging for that? And if you’re just beginning, obviously don’t just start off at what they’re doing. ⁓ but if you start.

lower than that, but not so cheap where you’re just going to become booked up for three months in a row, then that’s also a sign that you need to raise your prices more. I think people get afraid of that. Like I just had this conversation with one of my coworkers who charges a little less than I do, but is wildly talented, should be charging absolutely the same, if not more, you know, and you know, they could be

Liam Shea (54:38)
Yeah.

Andy Judd (55:00)
They’re so booked out and they’re afraid to lose people. But mathematically, if you lose more people at a higher price point, you’re still making on average of the same and you open up for new people to come in who will pay for a higher price point. I think finding a happy medium of where to begin and then not being afraid to alter it, either up or down if you need to, is where it goes. I would say, huh.

Liam Shea (55:09)
Exactly.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (55:30)
Sorry, my answers to the questions are not short because I have to think them out.

Liam Shea (55:33)
That doesn’t,

that’s not a problem. That’s not, there’s no.

Andy Judd (55:35)
Okay,

I don’t have an individual answer. It’s just…

Liam Shea (55:40)
I’m not grading this at the end, just as a heads up. There’s no like, ugh, that was the… No, no, I think it’s great because I think there’s a bunch of things you’re saying in there. Like, I really like…

Andy Judd (55:42)
No, I know, but I- I just… I’m naughty.

Liam Shea (55:56)
understanding well I got very few people understand the last thing you just talked about which is if you raise your prices and you lose this many people you’ll still be making the same amount of money and now you have this opened up space to let more people in I mean it’s you know not everybody is for everybody somebody’s gonna be it you know I say to some of my guests that sit in my chair I can’t always afford me like you know

Andy Judd (56:23)
Right.

Liam Shea (56:24)
I’ve been doing it for 25 years. This is what it costs. Here’s how much education I put in. Here’s how much time I put in. I’m in one of the most expensive per square footage cities on the planet earth. This is just what it costs. Is it fair or not fair? It doesn’t really matter. It just is what it is based on real estate, based on my education, based on how long I’ve been doing it, based on what I need to pay rent.

Andy Judd (56:35)
Mm-hmm.

Right, because

the question of is it fair is also not your decision. That’s not your decision. That’s not up to you. There’s outside situations that reflect what you have to charge to be able to make a living because this is what you’ve dedicated to. And so ultimately, yes, it is fair because no one should expect somebody to be dedicated to what they’re doing with their life and put that much work into it and not be able to afford their livelihood.

Liam Shea (56:55)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And if you build the right relationship with your guests and create the right experience, the majority of those will understand. remember when I made a shift, I had removed gender from my pricing years ago, and then I shifted towards an hourly price point and I wrote a long email explaining why I’d done it. And I had one person write back. I’d even put in the email, not everybody’s going to be able to afford this.

Andy Judd (57:45)
Mm-hmm.

Liam Shea (57:45)
I was building tips into it, so was an hourly price and that’s the price. Yeah, and you know, this person wrote me back and they said they thought it was amazing, they really liked it. They wouldn’t be able to keep coming and seeing me because they can’t afford it, but by no means did they want me to change my pricing. So if you build the relationships, you’ll get that response some of the time. You know, I also said to her, when I did it, I said,

Andy Judd (57:50)
I do that as well,

Liam Shea (58:12)
If there’s anybody that genuinely can’t afford it and is in a bad place, let me know. I will continue to do a certain amount of buy donation appointments in the same way that every time my guests, if I have a guest that becomes unemployed, I’m very clear with them. When you’re looking for work, you just come get a haircut. We’re not charging you now. We’re not charging you later. Just come get a haircut. It’s in my best interest that you’re employed anyways.

Andy Judd (58:21)
Yeah.

Liam Shea (58:41)
Just come get your free haircut. It’s not sympathy. It’s not I’m just doing it because it’s what we should do for each other. You go get a job and then come pay me money.

Andy Judd (58:48)
will also benefit if you take,

and if you take photos of it as well, you’re also benefiting in some way from that as well. So I fully, fully, fully with you. And then if my version of that is a lot of the model, like color models that I use are already pre-existing clients who will see me for a haircut. And I know they’re open to color. And I’m like, you know what, if you ever want to do something.

Liam Shea (58:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (59:15)
Let me know to free service. I’m going to take pictures of it. I’m going to create some content with it. I’ll get something out of it. You will get something out of it. Then we’ll go from there.

Liam Shea (59:22)
Exactly.

And I actually prefer the model. Again, my friend Britt that’s working out of here, she’s done a great job with that. I told her right away, don’t discount anything. Don’t do discounts, no discounts. I said, freeze better than discount. You’re better off giving it away than you are discounting it. Giving it away doesn’t devalue it. Discounting it devalues it.

Andy Judd (59:38)
Mm-hmm. I agree.

No, because it’s

a trade situation at that point, or a practice exploratory situation. But I agree, I’ve never discounted my work and I don’t plan on discounting anything that I do. I don’t like it. I think it’s just a tactic to get people in and they devalue you and expect you to always work for cheaper.

Liam Shea (1:00:10)
Yeah, no, it’s not an effective. you, was Groupon big when you started?

Andy Judd (1:00:15)
⁓ actually, no, but there was one salon, the one that was opening, they did a lot of Groupon, like, blowout situations. No, they don’t. It’s a one-time thing.

Liam Shea (1:00:17)
or had it died out.

right.

Yeah, they don’t come back. It’s

it’s like you’ve devalued your service and they’re not a returning guest. That’s not a that’s just a discount opportunity. It’s not a building anything. So that’s one of the things I always use as an example for why not to discount. We know quantifiably that doesn’t work. It works for Groupon. I mean, for a while they did fantastically, but

Andy Judd (1:00:50)
Right.

Totally.

Liam Shea (1:00:54)
And I think there were some industries that found ways to like double the price of the thing they sold and then discount it back down to what it would have normally cost when they’re just trying to sell out of a thing. But yeah, no. A different game altogether.

Andy Judd (1:01:07)
Yeah, and that’s, yeah, that’s, that’s

a whole thing, but morally, it just, it just, that’s a, it’s, I feel like the people that resonate with just fact and flat rates and it just, this is what it is. I have people who come and see me very rarely for more special occasions and then go to somebody that I’ve referred to them for.

Liam Shea (1:01:12)
Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andy Judd (1:01:35)
regular maintenance

Liam Shea (1:01:36)
Yes.

Andy Judd (1:01:37)
and that dynamic works well. You’re then supporting younger people in the industry. and then also they still are a version of your client or a guest because they still come to see you because maybe they want to see you or they want something done that’s different or a bigger change that the younger stylist might not be ready for. And that’s totally fine. Yeah.

Liam Shea (1:01:52)
Yes.

Yeah, it’s great.

You’re still controlling the experience to a degree and you’re still part of it. And yeah, you’re growing the industry. mean, I think it’s.

Somebody was talking to me yesterday about a person they met that produces a certain type of product and they need somebody to come on and work with them. But their big concern is that if they teach them how to do this, that they’ll leave eventually and go do it on their own. my feeling is that’s our, that’s the greatest thing that you can do. It’s all of our duty to pass information on and teach a person. It’s not their job to stay mine forever.

Andy Judd (1:02:42)
Right.

Liam Shea (1:02:42)
duty

is to pass this information on to people and help the next generation. I’m not doing it forever, right? I don’t want to just keep it all for me forever and then tell them never to go see another person again. I’m, you know, I want everyone to grow. think like with pricing, you were talking about if we lift everyone up, we all benefit. If, if five people discount, it pulls all of us down. And again, I’m for affordability a hundred percent. I think both you and I grew up probably in

Andy Judd (1:02:48)
Yeah, I hope you

It’s true.

Yeah, yes.

Liam Shea (1:03:11)
very similar ways. There wasn’t money. I didn’t get to fancy haircut. I got Beatles haircuts with a bowl in the kitchen. Right? That’s it. You know, we were poor. We were poor enough. But I remember asking my mom if I go to a salon and she did let me go. And I remember picking it out of a book that was about this size. And, you know, and that was like $12. And I know that was a stretch at the time to make that happen. But yeah, it’s not not everyone can afford it. But you know,

Andy Judd (1:03:18)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Aha, and yep.

Liam Shea (1:03:41)
you still need to charge your worth and you need to survive. Yeah.

Andy Judd (1:03:46)
Absolutely.

Liam Shea (1:03:48)
Now I’m just blathering on.

Andy Judd (1:03:49)
No, I love it. I could talk about it for hours.

Liam Shea (1:03:51)
Yeah.

Well, we should do it again. And we’ll pick another topic and we’ll delve into something specific. I think what I would love to ask you down the road is see sort of some like before and afters of the space that you’re in and talk to you about the process of doing the booth renting thing, going from commission to booth renting, because I think it’s a lot. Yeah.

Andy Judd (1:04:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

I’d be happy to talk about it. Like I said, it’s still so new, you know, I’m still figuring it out to be honest. My game plan right now is I’m posting these videos of me in the space so that way people can know what it looks like. That way they’re not just exclusively walking into a brand new environment that they’re unfamiliar with. Exactly. I want, I want people to be at least somewhat familiar with.

Liam Shea (1:04:23)
Yeah.

It’s all a process.

Yes, uncomfortable and yeah.

Andy Judd (1:04:46)
what they’re gonna see. Yeah, it can be intimidating to go anywhere new, even if you know the person you’re gonna see.

Liam Shea (1:04:48)
can be intimidating. Like, I…

Yeah. And salons, I think people think salons are cooler than they are. And I mean, they are cool. I don’t think they understand it’s usually a room of misfits. Right? Misfits and lost toys all in a room that just got collected because no one knew what else to do or how to do anything else or, and you just ended up together. And sure, yeah. I guess somehow we ended up being allowed to decide what’s cool. It seems a touch ridiculous. ⁓ it’s like, can you…

Andy Judd (1:05:05)
Totally. Yeah.

Totally. Totally.

Liam Shea (1:05:24)
Do you know about the Wizard and Wizard of Oz? I feel like if you were to see behind the curtain, you might be like, that’s not what I expected. But so I always try and be cognizant of when a person walks through the door, they’re not comfortable, especially if it’s that salon where everybody’s hanging around the front desk and not looking at them and they’re talking to each other and like, no, no, no, greet them, pull them in, make sure they know they’re supposed to be there. Roll out the red carpet. Yeah. Big fan of it.

Andy Judd (1:05:49)
Right.

Liam Shea (1:05:54)
Thanks a ton for doing this. Sure appreciate it. Yeah tons of fun. Stick around but yeah I look forward to doing it again. Thanks, Andy.

Andy Judd (1:05:56)
Oh my gosh, of course, thank you for having me, truly, at every time.

Likewise. And if we don’t

do it again before New York, I hope to see you in New York. Are you going? Okay.

Liam Shea (1:06:12)
I’m not going this year. I wish

I was, but I’m not going this year. Sadly, it makes me very sad. You will see me virtually. All right, stick around for a sec.

Andy Judd (1:06:17)
Well, I will see you virtually.