There are conversations you walk away from feeling like you’ve just had coffee with someone who’s lived three lifetimes in a single career. My chat with Sonya Dove was one of those.
If somehow you don’t know the name: Sonya is the artistic director for Intercoiffure, a 42-year veteran of Wella, and a member of the Ulta Beauty Pro Team. She’s done hair for Game of Thrones, The Hunger Games, and shows on pretty much every continent with running water. She picked up the call from Mexico, where she’s been living for the last five years, and she opened with the line that ended up framing the whole hour: “I’m a bit of a workaholic.”
Reader, she was not exaggerating.
“It took me 15 years to get a foothold”
What I loved right out of the gate is how unimpressed Sonya is with her own résumé. We got onto competitions — she’s won a closet’s worth — and her takeaway wasn’t “here’s the formula.” It was seven years before her first top-three placing. Fifteen years before anyone outside of Devonshire knew her name.
In an Instagram era where everyone seems to expect overnight ascension, hearing that from one of the most decorated stylists in the industry felt like permission. Permission to take your time. Permission to suck for a while. Permission to lose seven years of competitions before you win one.
On staying with Wella for 42 years
I asked her if she’d ever been tempted to jump ship. Her answer was vintage Sonya: “The grass isn’t greener, because the same challenges a manufacturer has, another manufacturer is going to have.” She described the relationship as a tango — two parties, both leading and following, both showing up. After 42 years, she’s still on the dance floor.
Speaking of which.
The dance show (yes, a literal one)
Halfway through the conversation Sonya casually dropped that she’d just been asked to perform in a dance show in Mexico — cumbia, bachata, salsa — alongside dancers in their twenties and thirties. She’s 63. She said no at first, then went home, made a list of everything she was afraid of, realized it was all “brain, not heart,” and called the teacher back the next morning to say yes.
If there’s a more Sonya Dove story than that, I haven’t heard it.
On AI, the Sophie Turner pushback, and “wolf cuts”
We got into the weeds on AI in competition entries, and Sonya did not mince words. Eyes from one model, lips from another, hair Photoshopped to high heaven — and no one disclosing any of it. Her fix? Make an AI category at NAHA. Let people go wild. Just don’t dress it up as real hair on a real human.
That dovetailed into one of the best stories of the hour: she was tasked with taking Sophie Turner from Game of Thrones red to platinum blonde for a Wella shoot. Wella wanted it in one day. Sonya, on camera, said it would take a year and four months. “Wella almost died on the set,” she laughed. The crew called cut. The truth got told. The transformation eventually happened — slowly, properly, the way chemistry actually works.
It was the perfect doorway into her bigger frustration: the gap between what social media shows and what actually happens at the chair. The Kim Kardashian platinum that everyone now wants done in three hours for $200. (Spoiler: it was a wig.) The “butterfly cut” and the “octopus cut” and the “wolf cut” — which, as Sonya pointed out with genuine glee, are all long layered haircuts wearing new branding.
Mentors, big salons, and why a suite would kill her
Some of my favourite moments came when we found mutual ground — turns out we’d both been shaped by Diego Reviglione and Anthony Crossfield, two names that made her light up. We talked about how the gifted ones often skip steps when they teach because their craft is so intuitive, and how the best teachers tend to be the ones who had to learn the hard way themselves. “You can’t teach feeling,” she said about a cutting class she once took. True then, true now.
She also confessed that the salon-suite model would have flattened her: “I’m a chatter. I have to run an idea by someone.” Two attempts at salon ownership taught her she’s not built for management, and she’s at peace with it. “I’ve got my cake and I’m eating it,” she said. Hard to argue.
Go watch the full thing
Honestly, this is the kind of conversation where I caught myself forgetting I was supposed to be hosting. Sonya is generous with her stories, brutally honest about her own gaps, and weirdly modest about a body of work most of us would frame on a wall.
Whatever stage you’re at — apprentice, ten years in, owner, educator — there’s something in this one for you. Grab a coffee, hit play, and meet her properly.
I have a strong feeling you’ll come away with the same thought I did: I want to be doing this when I’m 63.
You can find Sonya at:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesonyadove/?hl=en
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sonya.dove.7
Transcript:
Liam Shea (00:02)
Fantastic. Okay, well I’m here with Sonya Dove and I’m excited to get a chance to chat and get to know you. Do you want to just give us like 30 seconds about who you are and where you are?
Sonya Dove (00:14)
Yes, so I’ve been in the hairdressing industry about 45 years. I’ve been with Weller for 42 of those years. I’m originally from England, hence the funny accent. And I moved to the United States in 1996. And I’ve been working with Weller and I work with Ulta. I’m the artistic director for Intercoffure. So I think I’m a bit of a workaholic.
to say the least, and I’m speaking to you today from Mexico, which is where I reside at the moment.
Liam Shea (00:50)
Very nice, that is a lovely place to reside. Good for you. It’s probably warmer there than it is here today. ⁓ So 42 years, you said, with Wella?
Sonya Dove (00:53)
Thank you.
It is warmer. It is warmer.
Yes, yes, long, long time. I actually started, I started with them back in England. I had my own salon in Devonshire. And what happened is I got bored with running a salon. Now, when I say a salon, I’m talking about a two basin, two chair salon, not salon. Salon. And I was young and I was bored with just
Liam Shea (01:05)
Yeah.
Yep. No. I know exactly what you mean.
Sonya Dove (01:31)
running the salon and doing clients, I thought, what else could I do? So I started to enter hair competitions. So I won a lot of hair competitions after many, many years. It took me about seven years to get my first placing in the first three. So it didn’t just happen overnight. And I’m very stubborn by nature. I never give up on anything. I’m a Taurus. And I did all these competitions and I won a lot in one year.
Liam Shea (01:42)
Nice.
Wow.
Sonya Dove (02:00)
by a fluke, it truly was that. And then it was, well, okay, a bit of both. It was, yes, it was all right, it was, it was good. I’m very humble about my work. And I got approached by Weller to do a class in London, the big London, because where I lived was in the Boondocks compared. And I did a class for Weller in their studio.
Liam Shea (02:03)
Well, I’m just…
I’m sure you presented some good work. ⁓
Sonya Dove (02:29)
and I put everything into it. And they signed me on to do hair. I was with my husband at that time, Christopher Dove. We were called the Doves. And that was the beginning of this Weller roller coaster, a wonderful one it has been.
Liam Shea (02:47)
it. ⁓
So did you eventually move to London to work with Bella or did you stay in Devonshire?
Sonya Dove (02:57)
No, I stayed in Devonshire because we had the salon and a lot of the travel, it started off in England for the first two years and then we got ⁓ booked to do a lot of international work for Weller. We were the new kids on the block. ⁓ It was, we were having a wonderful time. We did Europe, Asia, ⁓ Russia. So there was no need to sort of move to London.
Liam Shea (03:01)
great.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (03:26)
essentially. And then eventually we got asked to do a show in the United States in the early 90s. And it was in Dallas, Texas for Neagle Corporation. It was a very big show. And we came over, we did that. And there was a host salon in Dallas that they connected us with where we could do our prepping and our model casting and everything.
And we became good friends with the owners, Linda and Shelton Ogle. They had Ogle schools, they had five schools in the Dallas Metroplex and then four hair salons called Shelton’s also in the Metroplex. And we got friends with them and then what happened the next year, they asked us if we could come over for two weeks to help train and set up some education in their…
company. So we did that. We did it for actually three years. And then one year on the way back to the airport, Shelton Linda asked us if we would ever think about moving to the United States. And we had our salon in Demonshire. So it’s like, ⁓ gosh, I don’t know. But the opportunity was like, Wow, wow, pinched myself. So we sort of worked it out. We let Christopher Dove’s mother
Liam Shea (04:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (04:49)
run the salon and we came to United States and they got us a green card. So it was all done all above board. That was in the early nineties. And then we eventually moved over in 1996 and waved goodbye to England, our family, our friends, but not to Weller because for Weller it was a transition from one country to another. And it’s been amazing. It’s been fantastic, I have to say.
Liam Shea (05:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It’s so funny thinking back to Wella being the new kid on the block. That feels like a long time ago to me. It’s been such a… I mean, it’s the line I used from apprenticeship on. In fact, if I remember, I’m trying to remember, what was the semi-permanent line called that got discontinued in maybe the early 2000s? Do you remember? They had my…
Sonya Dove (05:40)
⁓
some colour touch.
Midway, could you? Midway?
Liam Shea (05:45)
no it was before color touch it was
And maybe it was different. It could have been named something different where I am in Canada as well. I just remember it being the greatest ⁓ toner line that I had ever used. Now, I might be putting it on a pedestal compared to Colortouch just because I haven’t had access to it in 25 years. ⁓ But it had a 1AB as well, an actual black. Whereas after that, 2 tended to be the darkest color you could get your hands on.
Sonya Dove (06:07)
Yes,
Yes, yes.
Liam Shea (06:19)
but it was like a goth black. Why am I forgetting?
Sonya Dove (06:19)
Oh my god. Oh, it wasn’t the Inspire line. Inspire, it was made of granules. No. Oh gosh, now you’ve got me thinking.
Liam Shea (06:25)
I don’t think so. And none
of it’s even important. was just, you you and I are sitting here talking and I suddenly, ⁓ right?
Sonya Dove (06:35)
Now, the old Weller days.
Yes, no, it’s a fantastic brand. And to be honest with you, Liam, is I’ve had opportunities because I’m the longest person that’s ever been with Weller, the one brand. I’ve only ever been with one brand. And to me, the grass isn’t greener because the same challenges a manufacturer has for a person, another manufacturer is going to have the same challenges.
Liam Shea (07:03)
yeah.
Sonya Dove (07:03)
So for me, the grass is not greener. I’ve supported them throughout my career. When they’ve been down, I’ve helped bring them up and vice versa. mean, goodness gracious me. They put me on a pedestal and allowed me to do things that I’ve never, my brain couldn’t even dream about. So it’s like a tango. It takes two. It definitely takes two.
Liam Shea (07:23)
Yeah.
I love it.
Well, and I mean, it’s the only way this type of education happened before sort of the digital switch. I mean, really, you’ve got brand education. I mean, I’m in Vancouver, Canada, and we would, our hair show, we get canceled every other year because it wasn’t busy enough. And so you would have to leave the city or the country to get
Sonya Dove (07:33)
Yes.
⁓
Liam Shea (07:50)
any real education to speak of other than every now and then you lucked out with with brand education and I loved that. That’s so cool.
Sonya Dove (07:52)
Yeah.
Yeah, education’s, yeah, you’re right. Education’s
really changed because I’m a face-to-face educator. So when the social media education came in, I was like, oh gosh, this is difficult for me because it’s unusual. And then COVID hit and I didn’t have any choice because Weller still wanted me to educate, but it was me and the laptop. And I’m like, oh my gosh, how do I do this? But it’s amazing how…
Liam Shea (08:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (08:27)
you get put in a situation and then you just make the most of it and it works. So now I do education face-to-face, I do classes, mentor a lot, I love mentoring. Mentorship for me is everything and I do shows, so it could be digital, it could be face-to-face or at a hair show. So now I think the hairdressers are really, really lucky because back in our day,
Liam Shea (08:40)
That’s me too.
my goodness.
Yes.
Sonya Dove (08:56)
There was only
one way, know, apprenticeships. And the first few years of when you got your ⁓ education certificate in England, it’s called the City and Guilds. But in the United States, once you’ve got your certificate, you can’t just start here then. It’s a couple of years of sweeping, cleaning and making coffee. And it’s really that real. It’s funny, I get asked, sorry to cut you off, I get asked a lot.
Liam Shea (08:59)
Yeah.
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. That was…
cool.
Sonya Dove (09:26)
How can I be a Sonya Dove? And I said, well, you need a lot of time, a lot of patience and hard work. And I get asked, well, how much time? I said, it took me at least 15 years to start getting a slight foothold into being known. They said, 15 years? I said, yeah, it doesn’t happen overnight.
Liam Shea (09:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, especially pre social media, there just, was no way you had to be on a platform at hair shows, numerous hair shows over and over and over and over again. mean, the only digital education that existed even in the late nineties was, ⁓
product knowledge VHSs and then eventually DVDs. That’s the only thing you could get that wasn’t a person. The switch from in-person, I mean you still do in-person, but to at least some digital or all digital at the beginning of COVID, did you find…
Sonya Dove (10:11)
Yeah.
Thank
Yes.
Liam Shea (10:28)
that transition difficult because sometimes what i find is if you don’t have that at least for those of us in the hair industry were used to that immediate feedback from the person that’s in front of us and everything i do based off of you with that tennis thing like you you it serve the ball to me and then i know what to do based on that did you find that ⁓ a difficult transition to begin with
Sonya Dove (10:52)
Yeah,
I did because I, the reason I got into the industry is not because of hair, it’s actually I knew I wanted to work with people. So I was after any parameter that gave me people, but never a computer. I knew that straight away. I’m the opposite. for ⁓ when COVID hit and I started to do education for a lot of people and it was just a flat screen,
Liam Shea (11:09)
No.
Sonya Dove (11:21)
I tried to get feedback and I’m like, do they like what I’m showing them? Do they not? Are they happy with what I’m doing? Are they not happy? So it’s very flat to me, but that was very, very hard because there was a lot of self doubt because of the non-existing feedback, especially when you’ve got over 200 to 300 people when you’re doing a class for.
Liam Shea (11:39)
Yeah.
Yes. ⁓
Sonya Dove (11:48)
So that was hard, but then I started to realize, Sonia, it’s not about you. It’s not what you’re feeling. It’s about the audience. And I would write an email after to check with the company and it was all fine. But I find it sterile. I’m going to be honest with you. ⁓ Yes, because yeah, by nature. And also it’s like when you’re talking, I get a sense of your energy.
Liam Shea (11:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. yeah, it is. By nature.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (12:17)
You can’t talk to two or three hundred people and get a feeling about them on the computer. So, yeah, it was tough. And I have to say, still out of the two, nothing beats touching, feeling someone else.
Liam Shea (12:22)
No.
No.
even when you’re in front of a crowd, it’s not like you’re not always getting feedback from everyone, but there’s usually those two or three people sort of near you that are truly engaged that you can look at that are nodding and looking back and giving you feedback. And then of course people can put their hand up, which is a little different digitally than it was in person. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (12:54)
Yeah,
you’re right. You’re right. think there was a lot to COVID. There was a lot of learnings. There was for me. There really was to make that switch to everybody.
Liam Shea (13:03)
for everyone.
I think it’s sped up certain processes that were happening, but we’re going to take 10, 15, 20 years to sort of slowly transform into something. And then they were overnight. Everybody was home for three months and suddenly a bunch of hairdressers were sitting in bedrooms trying to figure out how to work Zoom. Yeah. yeah. No, no, no. 100%. I mean, I do ⁓ demos with people.
Sonya Dove (13:26)
Yeah, ⁓ yeah, and still are myself included.
Liam Shea (13:36)
on the right guitar, I’ve already done one today and it’s not our specialty. It’s not what we’re built for.
Sonya Dove (13:41)
No, it’s not because
the creative person, that’s more of a digital, it’s more of a techie thing. I mean, you know how many emails I’ve written to you panicking and I hope I’m going to be okay. So yes, I fall into that category for sure.
Liam Shea (13:49)
Mm-hmm.
You wrote just the right amount of emails. It was perfect. You
talked about mentoring. ⁓ If you were talking to young you getting into the hair industry, and it’s very different, I think, than when both you or I got into the industry. I I did an apprenticeship and I was lucky enough to be in a salon filled with talented people. I learned from all the people around me. There was no external mentorships. I didn’t have access to other people.
Sonya Dove (14:04)
Yes.
Liam Shea (14:27)
And even at that point, wasn’t as the industry wasn’t as. It was still a little on the competitive side, like you weren’t going and sharing with the competitor on the next block over. were there were rivals, so you weren’t asking them to teach you things that’s shifted a lot since, which is great. ⁓ So somebody’s new, they’re getting into the industry. They’re either going to hair school or if they’re lucky and they found an apprenticeship, what would you tell them? ⁓
Sonya Dove (14:37)
yes.
Yes.
Liam Shea (14:57)
What would you tell them? Like if they were interested in mentorship, what would you tell them to do?
Sonya Dove (15:03)
I would tell them to, first of all, there’s a few things before that is they, when you get into the hair industry, a lot of people, they don’t know if they want to work in fashion and do more editorial. Do they want to own a salon? Do they want to work in the salon behind the chair for someone? Do they want to be in the movie industry? There’s so much celebrities that,
in the bucket of hair, there’s like 10 buckets. So I think for me, I would advise them to try and focus a bit on what you would love. But the only way you know what you would like to do is by trying each one of those things that you desire, just try them. Like an example, ⁓ I’ve always wanted to do hair for the movies. So I got this opportunity
Liam Shea (15:37)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (16:01)
by a fluke to do the hair for Game of Thrones. Yeah, and also a couple of Catching Fire and The Hunger Games and things like that. I know I was very, very lucky, but I realized after doing this little stint that it wasn’t for me. It’s actually not what it seems. It’s quite, it’s very different. It’s very labor intensive. So you have to be that type of hairdresser.
Liam Shea (16:05)
Amazing.
It’s very different.
Sonya Dove (16:31)
So try and figure out first what genre or area you want to go in. If you’re good at business, you’re really cut out to be a salon owner. I’m not good at business, so I’m not cut out to be a salon owner. I prefer to work in a salon. And then really don’t write down all your dreams or all what you would love to do. And then slowly, step by step, go forward through…
Liam Shea (16:41)
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (17:00)
finding out things. So mentorship, look into someone that does what you’re after doing. Like if you want to be a great salon owner, start to get a group of friends that are salon owners, because you’re going to learn from them. So whatever genre it is, immerse yourself, write to people. Don’t be afraid to sort of open your mouth and say, my dream is to have a salon one day.
Would you give me some advice or would you mentor me? Don’t be afraid to say because I think a lot of people are afraid to express their own internal outwards to people. But if you don’t say to someone, you’re going to be going round yourself in circles. Whereas you might be talking to someone that knows someone that can help you along the way. So speak a lot, work out, watch area you want to.
Liam Shea (17:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (17:57)
be in and if you don’t know what area you want to be in, that’s just 100 % perfect. Because if you don’t know, then you just do one little thing at a time and you’ll find out what you like to do. And if you want to educate and you want to be safe versus be a Sonya Dove, you need to get all your skill set worked out really well and you know, make sure you’re good at the things that you want to do. Back in our day, Liam,
Liam Shea (18:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (18:26)
We had to be good at everything. It was
cut, color, and style. Lo and behold, you can now pick and choose. You can be a colorist or you can be a cutter. That never existed. So it’s a…
Liam Shea (18:36)
Yeah.
I never met a niche
hairstylist. I met some people that were so good at the one thing that they tended to, you know, I remember, I’m sure you, I remember watching somebody do a full head of bleach cap highlights in like eight or nine minutes. What do you mean? Like they could just.
Sonya Dove (18:58)
No!
Liam Shea (18:58)
I I swear if I did that, I would have stabbed the person in the head like 300 times and they’d be in the hospital. No, there’s just no, I don’t know where the hair was coming from. I found highlights so liberating when they came in with foils, but they still weren’t niching. You could still get a perm and those highlights and a haircut and a blow dry and a style. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (19:25)
Yeah, it’s really changed that you can do that. And actually as well, in the world, there’s more cutters than there are more colorists just globally. And I totally get it because color is not easy and it’s getting harder and harder and harder. And that’s why if you do want to go the color route, you can be…
Liam Shea (19:35)
Definitely.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (19:48)
the king or queen of the color world easily because it’s a smaller niche. Because once you tackle it and you get to know a brand of color really, really well, like I know Wella upside down and inside out, you can really do well with it really well, but it is a little bit more, it’s more difficult than cutting. That’s for sure because of people’s medication.
Liam Shea (19:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (20:14)
⁓ minerals and deposits in the water, the water in the world is just getting worse and worse and worse. So things are getting harder. So
Liam Shea (20:20)
Yes.
Yeah.
I also think sometimes with color, ⁓ there are certain types of brains that just can learn that kind of science better, or it depends on how it was taught. I really struggled with color formula at the beginning. I was lucky enough to be surrounded by incredibly gifted people, but I find sometimes ⁓ the really gifted people, a bunch of it’s intuitive.
so they don’t actually realize certain things are steps and they skip telling you because they just assume.
and I’ve been through so many issues, like, I’m doing what you said, I’m missing something. And I found that with color theory. ⁓ Whereas I met another person that came across a colorist that taught them, like through math, how to understand, like in a real this plus this equals this. ⁓ And that would have worked better for my brain. But yeah, I loved being around talented people, but it was harder in a way.
Sonya Dove (21:13)
Yep.
Yes, yeah, and I love what you said. You absolutely said such a valid point because when someone’s highly creative, they just do what they do. And sometimes when you come to teach, it’s hard for them to teach. I went to a cutting class once and someone, was a cutting class based on feel, the feel of the hair. So they would hold the hair and where it felt thicker or heavier.
Liam Shea (21:33)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (21:50)
They would cut a bit here and then they’d feel with the hands. You can’t teach feeling. You can’t. No, no. ⁓
Liam Shea (21:55)
No. It doesn’t even feel the same to the other person. That’s not, that’s not,
no, that’s not a replicable. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (22:03)
So yeah, you’re right.
You’re right. So it is hard. Teaching is not easy. It really isn’t easy. Because when they think of what you just said, and I’m thinking, I had similar experiences. I really did. And teaching, I think you’d be like in the world of teaching, you’d be an amazing teacher as well. don’t know if you’ve ever taught before.
Liam Shea (22:09)
No.
That’s nice of you to say.
Not really. I’ve mentored more than taught. I’ve taught a little bit more into cutting. I think the teeny bit of teaching I’ve done has made me feel like I’m better at teaching it the more I do it, obviously, because you start to remember the systems and what are the rules, and did I just tell him to skip something? And wait, you can’t jump to that stage. ⁓
Sonya Dove (22:34)
Okay.
Okay.
Yes, yes.
But what would make you a good teacher, also I’m sure you’re amazing mentor, is the story you just said, that the person skipped some steps. So what that would make that happen to you when you started training. So what that would make you, that would make you so deliberate, so making sure yourself that you would teach the person or mentor the person every little bit of step along the way.
Liam Shea (23:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (23:23)
because
of an experience that happened to you. It’s perfect.
Liam Shea (23:26)
Yeah, yeah,
it’s true. Yeah, yeah. And several of the people I, because I was the salon assistant. So there was a name on my apprenticeship form of the person I was theoretically apprenticing under. I’m just trying to remember. It wasn’t my primary mentor, but I have a feeling you’d actually know ⁓ Diego, Diego Reviglione. Yeah. Yes. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (23:46)
I’m
Diego! my gosh, Diego used to work at Bellis Academy in San Diego then he was,
my god, Diego, yes, yes, yes!
Liam Shea (23:57)
Yes. So
he was up in Vancouver at a salon called Stratosphere that I started at years and years ago. ⁓ And ⁓ his name was the one on the form. He wasn’t necessarily the primary person. I found him ⁓ a fantastic teacher, a fantastic teacher. also apprenticed underneath ⁓ someone named Anthony Crossfield, who was another, yeah.
Sonya Dove (24:04)
Bye.
⁓ it’s brilliant.
my gosh. Yeah,
⁓ fuck.
Liam Shea (24:23)
So
that was, so I essentially lived with Anthony for years and then I went to his salon after there. I had a feeling you would know that name. ⁓ Another truly gifted, but definitely with Anthony, would have to, I wish I could go back and tell myself to, ⁓
Sonya Dove (24:28)
I love Anthony, love Anthony.
Liam Shea (24:42)
to speak up more. so, I wanted to move on when somebody would, when I wouldn’t understand something, I didn’t like feeling stupid, so I’d try and make it seem like I understood. And I wish I’d taken more knowledge from him at the beginning. I wish I understood how to say, no, actually, I don’t know what you’re saying. I was so concerned about appearing. So yeah, I mean, I hope students speak up for themselves and make sure they’re learning. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (25:05)
Yes, speak up really, because
you’re doing an injustice to yourself. Because, and yes, it can be embarrassing to say, I don’t really understand what you’re saying, or I don’t really understand this, but it’s the best thing you can do. think just that don’t be afraid to be humble, like it’s the best thing for you because you’re
Liam Shea (25:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anthony helped me
with the customer service side of things. That’s what he helped me with, how to treat people, keep them facing the mirror. You can steal everyone’s clients if you give a better scalp massage at the shampoo basin. And Diego was, you know, was just like the epitome of charming. How to be the most charming person in the room. Yeah. I love it.
Sonya Dove (25:33)
Hello?
Yeah. wow. You’ve just
mentioned two names that, wow, yes, great people, great people.
Liam Shea (25:54)
right?
Anthony had me competing at an early age. was like, I wasn’t good at it. But he had me competing. It certainly made me learn fast, that’s for sure. It’s not for everyone, competitions. I love that you spoke about it taking 15 years for you. think…
Sonya Dove (25:58)
⁓ I’m sure.
Liam Shea (26:18)
social media has had a tendency to make it seem like in two to five years you should already be the best in your field or the best in your specific craft. Whereas I felt the same five years I just started to figure out that I didn’t know anything. At 10 years I got a little comfortable with one thing and at 15 years I started to be able to learn better and more effectively. I love that that’s your story too.
Sonya Dove (26:43)
Yeah,
because without it’s the same thing as getting clients into this salon back years ago, you would just have to hand out a business card as much as you can. Now you’ve got social media, it’s so much easier, so much easier. So I think it did us both well that we learned the hard way. Because it’s a lot easier now. The only thing now is
Liam Shea (26:56)
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (27:12)
There are so many people doing so much stuff. The volume is much bigger. The other thing is as well, what’s changed the industry is the suites, the salon suites, you know, where you have a salon and there’s one person in the suite. I’m glad they weren’t around when I was around, when I first started, because I had to be in a big salon with lots of hairdressers, making a lot of noise.
Liam Shea (27:18)
Yes.
Yep.
Yep.
Sonya Dove (27:41)
and I love to learn from everybody. Put me in a suite on my own. I’m a chatter. I have to run by an idea with someone and a suite for me would kill me. I’m just not cut out for it. I really aren’t. not.
Liam Shea (27:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I completely,
I also think I would have chosen it too early on just due to, ⁓ you know, some of the negative sides about being in big salons and the stuff that I struggled with. think I probably would have seen it as an easy route and really it might have been somewhere I went to die slowly. ⁓
Sonya Dove (28:08)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, yes,
I totally agree. And I’m an artistic director for Intercoffure. And Intercoffure is salons that are on the larger side, know, bigger salons. It’s not for suites. It’s an organization that supports the salon business. And I just love it. I’ve been an Intercoffure member forever. And I like, can, I have to pinch myself to think I’m the artistic director.
And I was so proud when they asked me and with the support of Weller, it’s just been a, it’s, started last year and it’s a three year term. So I’m really enjoying that at the moment. And that gives me access to people that are in that salon frame, you know, all working together, team building, all of the things that a team salon brings. But yeah, I think I hear you if you’d have had the salon suite.
at beginning. It is an easy way out to a degree and not a non.
Liam Shea (29:17)
Yes, you… kind
of, yeah. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (29:22)
Yeah, and not as well.
Liam Shea (29:25)
could be less like emotionally painful at times. ⁓ I’m not sure. I think a very specific personality type is effective with that. And most people should try and learn by osmosis and be around as many people as possible and learn as many techniques as possible. I I found it very helpful. I don’t know about you to hear.
Sonya Dove (29:35)
Yep.
Liam Shea (29:48)
competing ideas to hear one person say, no, no, you do it this way and show you. And then next week, another person said, no, you don’t do it that way. You do it this way and show me. And then sort of, you know, okay, now I have to figure out for myself which one’s right for me, not necessarily which one’s right, but what’s right for me. ⁓ And if you’re by yourself, there’s none of that.
Sonya Dove (30:06)
Yeah.
No, none of it at all. None of it. I, every, when I think about everything I do, I always like to double check it or run it by someone. Even when I do a show, even though I’m creating the show, if I have a, a team of people helping me on the show, especially if it’s a big show, I always like to run it by them. What do you think? Because sometimes you might be off.
Liam Shea (30:36)
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (30:37)
And it’s being able to find people that will tell you the truth. Because what I used to find a little bit as I built my career up and I became like Sonya Dove and Christopher and I, we separated and we finished the Doves and it was Christopher Dove and Sonya Dove are two separate entities. I would ask people things and they were, no one would.
ever want to tell me the truth they say, no, that’s a really good idea. It’s perfect. But I don’t really want that. I want to hear. want to hear. No, I don’t think that’s a good idea. So I had to get past that stage with people. And now I’ve got people that will help me with that, which is great. Yeah.
Liam Shea (31:09)
That’s not helpful.
love it. ⁓
Did you find, so three years at the creative director role you said?
Sonya Dove (31:29)
Yes, yes, and I’m on year number two.
Liam Shea (31:31)
I know it’s the creative side of things, but it still seems to me, and correct me if I’m wrong, that it’s a management role. I don’t mean it in a negative way, but in that there’s more people ⁓ working under you. Again, I don’t mean that in a like that they’re minions, but like you’ve got more people. Did you find the transition to having more people working under you?
Sonya Dove (31:50)
no, that’s okay, that’s okay.
Liam Shea (31:58)
different because sometimes moving into, I mean, I’m sure you’ve been doing management type stuff forever, but it’s not just creative. It’s being creative and educating and making sure those people are able to manage and educate the people below them. Did you find there was a bit of a learning curve stepping into that role?
Sonya Dove (32:14)
yes,
yes, you mean the intercropping role? Yes, so ⁓ artistic director means two things. I do two presentations a year for all of the members and I do a photo shoot of a collection. So all of that’s pretty creative, but then what you need to do is I don’t like to just do something and I think, I’ll just create a collection. I have to understand who my audience is.
Liam Shea (32:18)
Yes.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Sonya Dove (32:44)
and do it for them. So you can’t do really wacky avant-garde stuff. You want to do things that relate to people working in the salon. And yes, there are a lot of people, but I stick to my artistic role. But then we have Scott Buchanan as president and we have got Gordon Miller as the general manager. So there’s people that deal more with the management than
Liam Shea (33:12)
Okay.
Sonya Dove (33:14)
I do. I just, which is fantastic. You know what? I’m going to say, Liam, I’ve got my cake and I’m eating it. Yeah, because everyone that knows me, whether it be Weller or Intercoffure, and the other job I have is I’m on the Ulta Beauty Protein. So I work with Ulta, which is a whole nother different sort of client. But I always like
Liam Shea (33:15)
That’s great. Yeah.
makes me very happy to hear.
right.
Sonya Dove (33:43)
They all know that I don’t do management and business very well. So they don’t let me take on too much of that rather than me learning it. Because if I learn start to learn something that I’m absolutely awful at, it’s a waste of my energy. I can put my energy. Does that make sense?
Liam Shea (33:59)
Mm-hmm.
totally.
And I doubt it’s that you would be not good at it. I imagine it’s just why take you from what you are absolutely spectacular at to go and do a thing you don’t want to do in the first place. What’s the benefit? There’s going to be somebody who actually enjoys that and should be for sure doing that role.
Sonya Dove (34:24)
Yes.
Yes, that’s why I’ve owned two salons in my life, one in Los Angeles and one in England. And I will not make the same mistake a third time. I am horrible at running a salon. treat all, no, I treat all the staff as my friends. We all go out together with everything. So when it came to have a hardcore conversation, I was, I just couldn’t do it because they’re like,
Liam Shea (34:45)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Sonya Dove (34:53)
It’s like speaking with your best friend. It was horrible. no, not me. I’ll work in a salon any day.
Liam Shea (34:56)
Yeah.
Yep, yep, I’m with you, I’m with
you. ⁓
Is there anything, is there a piece of information you see people teaching people in the industry that you think is either nonsense or that is just being taught too much and doesn’t work? Like something people are being taught, today in digital, that’s giving people the wrong impression about how to be successful in the hair industry.
Sonya Dove (35:32)
Hmm, that was an interesting question, Liam. You see, I don’t see the bad in anything, because even if it’s not good, there’s something good from it. But I think in the industry, I think something that is happening is that things can happen too quickly.
Liam Shea (35:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (36:00)
I think there needs in life, if I just take it more in life, whether it be career or life, there needs to be a process that you have to go through and it can be the good, the bad and the ugly to get to an end result. I think things are happening very, very quickly at the moment. Especially, let’s say this, there’s one little area that I will say and it’s in the negative way.
Liam Shea (36:05)
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (36:30)
is let’s say competitions or anything. So Naha, North American Hairdress of the Year, British Hairdressing Awards, whatever competitions they are, the Weller ones, they’re all the different ones. ⁓ AI, AI. AI, my partner is a photographer. He’s French and he’s a photographer. And I am telling you, I have such an eye for photographs.
Liam Shea (36:51)
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (37:00)
Half of the stuff is all AI’d and they don’t say it. And I think what would be really good, I don’t like picking up my phone and seeing something and ⁓ I know it’s AI and the person in the hashtags has not said it’s AI. They’ve claimed it as real. I think everyone should own up.
Liam Shea (37:07)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sonya Dove (37:27)
to if they’ve done AI. An example, I’ve seen it at Naha all the time. They take the eyes of one model, the lips of another, the forehead of another. They Photoshop the hair. Well, the Photoshop of the hair was done a lot anyway, but now it’s all AI. I think there needs to be an AI segment so people can just go for it. So in the Naha’s, an AI segment.
Liam Shea (37:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (37:56)
and just make it as wild as crazy as you want, but to claim that it’s real and it’s not a wig, it’s not extensions, but it’s their real hair. ⁓ That’s a part that I just very appreciate about.
Liam Shea (38:10)
Yeah, how do we,
it’s interesting. So I know lots of teachers outside of the hair industry. And one of the things I see changing in elementary schools and high schools and different level of schools is far more in class exams or in class papers, like writing your paper in class, not writing it at home and then giving it in. And so I think with some of those awards, it would be great to see. ⁓
Not the type of competition where we all have to watch you do it necessarily, like not that style of competition, but if it’s going to be the how does it look from a photography point of view, it should be all done in the same place. Everybody has to do it in the same place. Whatever will come up with the money will fly everyone there. And then that way it’s live.
Sonya Dove (38:43)
Yes, yes, Dr. Hicks.
Yes.
Liam Shea (38:59)
And so we can sort of have some live footage and here’s what it looks like. You don’t get access to the photo before it’s presented. It’s taken by the same person. It’s posted immediately with flaws. I don’t care. Put the flaws in. It’s a person. There’s no perfect person. ⁓
Sonya Dove (39:12)
put the floors, yeah,
is a really good point, actually. Back in the day, competitions were live, the models were standing live, but it’s very difficult now to do that. But I just think the ownership of saying that it’s AI, because a lot of people I see work out there, and like an example,
Liam Shea (39:34)
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (39:38)
I know a lot of models and I saw one model that I use often and I know full well her hair is not short cropped bleach blonde. I know it’s not. It’s long and black. I just know because I know her. And when you go to her Instagram, she’s not ever had it cut short and blonde. And the person is saying the real hair, da da da da. So it’s not the lying, but like we have to sort of…
Liam Shea (39:48)
Right.
Sonya Dove (40:07)
say the truth because if we don’t, we’re setting up a wrong example for the new hairdressers that think they can do that. Like an example, I’m just going to throw it out there, is Kim Kardashian, when she went from jet black to white blonde. okay, so all the clients are coming in wanting that done in three hours for $200. Because of what’s put out there, first of all, it’s a wig.
Liam Shea (40:13)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Sonya Dove (40:36)
So we need to, like, would be good if Chris would say, Chris Appleton would say, ⁓ this wig, I prepared it for hours, but they don’t. So that’s, that’s probably not, yeah, because what’s happening now, all those hairdressers in the salon, again, in the clients coming in asking for Kim Kardashian’s white blonde with a black root.
Liam Shea (40:36)
Yes.
look at her new hair. It’s disingenuous.
Sonya Dove (41:04)
It’s, and it’s, you can’t do that. You can’t.
Liam Shea (41:07)
No,
it like we’ve all seen the one person that one time that somehow did it like it existed once ever total ⁓ and it should you know, I would I always tell people when they come in with that photo definitely it’ll be about three years give or take we’ll get you there
Sonya Dove (41:16)
Yep. Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
Liam Shea (41:25)
You come in every six to eight weeks and we’ll get you there in the next three years or so. It’s probably going to cost you, you know, 10 to $30,000 over the course of that period of time, because this is what it’s going to take and your hair is going to feel awful.
Sonya Dove (41:34)
100 %
Yeah. In fact, to add on a story to that is I was responsible for ⁓ Sophie Turner turning her from Game of Thrones Red to blonde. that, yeah, but Sophie and Wella wanted me to do it in one go. I did the photo shoot in Berlin. It was launching one of Wella’s bleaches, lightness. And I had to say to the camera, to the film,
Liam Shea (41:49)
Yeah, that was impressive.
Sonya Dove (42:07)
to Sophie, to Wella, I can get you platinum. It will take me about a year and four months. Wella almost died on the set, but everyone was like, cut, cut. And I said the truth, and Sophie wanted to keep her hair waist-length. So I said, okay, okay, all right, I can do it in one go. I’ll need to cut your hair to here.
Liam Shea (42:16)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I mean…
Sonya Dove (42:36)
And she looked at Wella and said, no way. So, and I did eventually get her there, but I did highlights and then she turned to more of a strawberry blonde, then a golden blonde, and then a warmer blonde, and so on and so on, like normal, like how you’re saying. But it’s, yes, but.
Liam Shea (42:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, like chemistry. I mean, it’s just chemistry.
can’t you can’t defeat it. It’s not. I don’t.
Sonya Dove (43:00)
Yeah, 100%.
So you just have to. So if the truth, more truthful things on social media, that’s the only thing that I think where we’re going wrong. One thing as well that I think is hilarious is, and I say this on stage, these names for haircuts, butterfly wolf cut, the octopus cut, the ⁓ whatever, all these names.
Liam Shea (43:08)
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (43:27)
Basically, that is a long layered haircut.
Liam Shea (43:31)
You just renamed it, even when the shag came back. And then 18 months later, somebody said, I’d like this wolf cut. I’m like, that’s the same haircut.
Sonya Dove (43:36)
Yeah. Yep.
It’s… It’s the same!
Liam Shea (43:45)
I’m
sorry, it’s the same haircut. It didn’t change. Some other person called it something else. It’s the same haircut. It’s just a layered haircut where the layers at the top are shorter than you usually have them in a lot. Yeah, the longer layers. But yes, it’s just a haircut. It’s not new.
Sonya Dove (44:00)
No, it’s not new at all. But I don’t think that’s wrong. I think it’s quite funny. I think it’s hilarious. It’s hilarious. Like the Italian Bob, the French Bob, old money Bob, they’re all exactly the same. They look like mine.
Liam Shea (44:07)
it’s hilarious. it is.
above. Yeah. It’s either
above, below, or at the chin. It’s either A-line, straight, or you know like there’s it’s graduated or not.
Sonya Dove (44:23)
Yeah,
so things are getting a bit gimmicky, but tongue in cheek funny, but the AI, when I see these, this work, we’ve got to be careful of AI.
Liam Shea (44:36)
It reminds me bit of sponsored posts. You remember how at a certain point people said you have to, you can’t make it sound like you’re honestly reviewing a thing if it’s a paid advertisement. You need to put that it’s a sponsored post or that you’ve done a partnership. You can do it. You just have to be honest about how you did it. It’s fine. I don’t care. Draw your picture, make it perfect, but you’re ruining it for 95 % of hairstylists out there that are going to have to try and…
Sonya Dove (45:07)
to go.
Liam Shea (45:07)
make
a person look more perfect than humans look. Like it’s just not, it’s not fair, especially if the whole point is to give people a picture that inspires them to get a haircut. No one can replicate that. Yeah. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (45:18)
Yeah. no. And the AI
pictures now clients are bringing in. my God. The color and everything. Yeah. So is it, no.
Liam Shea (45:25)
It’s not even a real color sometimes.
Like sometimes they’ll bring it in and I’m like, that color doesn’t, that’s not an existing color that can be on a human. I can draw it for you if you want, but that’s it. Yeah.
Sonya Dove (45:32)
No.
Yeah, we have to be careful of this AI. It can be great and can be used for great things, but it also can be negative. It’s borderline in our industry.
Liam Shea (45:48)
Yeah.
Oh yeah. Yeah, I just don’t think, I mean, the purpose of our industry at the end of the day is to have a guest sit in your chair, make them feel good for a couple of hours and give them a look that they wanted. And I don’t see AI assisting with that.
Sonya Dove (46:01)
Yep.
No, not at all. Now it can assist in stock inventory, ⁓ data stuff, maybe businessy stuff, but in the world of a skill, AI, no, no.
Liam Shea (46:19)
No, no, can only do a disservice to me at that level. It can do a service in other places, but at that level, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not helping. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed on that one. ⁓ well, I’m cognizant of time, but what I would like to ask you, ⁓ is what are you working on right now and what’s next?
Sonya Dove (46:28)
Yeah, 100.
⁓ gosh. Okay, so I’ve
Liam Shea (46:47)
of things
that you can say obviously. I’m not saying like release, tell me about a collection that doesn’t exist or anything, just anything in your life, in hair.
Sonya Dove (46:50)
Yes.
Yes,
I’m working on my photo shoot that’s going to be doing for Intercrofure. So I’m liaising with a photographer and the people at Weller. So we’re on a three way call of getting that organized. So I’ve got to come up with the concept, the looks, the models, everything from zero, you know, from a blank page. So I’m working on that. We have a show in the
⁓ spring for intercoffure. I haven’t started working on that yet but I need to soon. then ⁓ Wella, I go to Wella in January in Los Angeles and we’re having our training on all of the new things that Wella has for the year. So that’s in the two weeks time. So I’m going to get to learn about what’s new and then I can put that into, weave that into what I’m doing. ⁓
Liam Shea (47:49)
Yeah.
Sonya Dove (47:51)
And with Ulta, I’m doing the Orlando hair show, premiere hair show in June for Ulta. I’m doing the IBS show in Las Vegas for Ulta. And I’ve got shows and I’ve got some photo shoots coming up with Ulta because I’m part of the pro team. And what that is, it’s five people that represent different brands. Me, Weller, someone from Redken, someone from Kenra, someone from Matrix and so on.
and we meet together and we do shows and education. So working on that. But then the other thing I’m working on that is nothing to do with hair and it just happened last night. So I’m going to throw it in here and it’s nothing to do with hair. Since I’ve moved to Mexico, I’ve been here five years, I’ve taken up a hobby that I’ve always wanted to do before I die. And I started going to dance classes. So I do cumbia.
bachata and salsa classes. Last night, the teacher in the class asked a group of us to put on a show. So we’re going to be putting on a show in a big place here in the city. And so I’m going to start training as of tomorrow for that.
Liam Shea (49:04)
Wow.
just to add one more thing onto the list with all your free time that you have.
Sonya Dove (49:14)
Remember I said I’m a workaholic? Yes.
Liam Shea (49:16)
Yes, yes, yes. ⁓
I know you’re comfortable on stage, but that’s such a totally different thing. That’s amazing.
Sonya Dove (49:22)
dancing and
Liam as well, if I may say. I’m 64 this year, 63 at the moment and the other people in the group in their mid-20s to mid-30s. And I said, are you sure you want me to do it? Are you sure? He said, oh no, you’re really good. You’ve got the moves. So I, first I said no to him and then I went home and I thought about it. What am I frightened of?
Liam Shea (49:40)
Yes.
Sonya Dove (49:50)
and I made the list of things and they’re all things that my brain was telling me, not my heart, my brain. So I called him up this morning and said, yes, I’m going to accept, I’m going to do it. So I’m going to do a dance show.
Liam Shea (50:02)
Congratulations on that!
That’s so exciting! That’s amazing! I love it! Wow. Wow. Well, I mean, you are… a performer.
Sonya Dove (50:12)
Yeah, I know. Isn’t that ironic?
Liam Shea (50:15)
I mean
you are a performer, that makes sense to me. I I get that. Not everybody is. ⁓ And it’s a skill that you hone over years. Yeah, that’s amazing. Congrats.
Sonya Dove (50:25)
So I’m proud of
myself. I’m doing something that’s not just hair, because all I’ve done all my life is hair. So this is the first thing. And look what came from it going to classes three times a week over five, six years. And here I am. I’m going to be doing a little dance show.
Liam Shea (50:33)
Yeah.
I love it. I love
it. can’t wait. I’m going to… ⁓ When do you know around when you’re doing that? Give or take? Okay, I’m gonna try and I’m gonna make a note to send you an email late February to see to see how that went. Yeah, I’m excited to hear about it. That’s so great. ⁓ that’s nice.
Sonya Dove (50:50)
February 15th, Sunday.
how it went.
Why not?
Why not?
Liam Shea (51:02)
Well,
I really appreciate you making the time to do this, both an hour before and at this time. That’s very helpful. Thank you. ⁓ I’d love to do it again. yeah, is that where can people find you?
Sonya Dove (51:11)
Thank you.
Yes?
And your? ⁓
my Instagram is the Sonia Dove. So T H E S O N Y A D O V E. I’ve also got a website soniadove.com and I’m on Facebook. I’ve got all the platforms. I’m not on TikTok or what’s, yeah, I’m sorry. I’m not very good at that. And also TikTok doesn’t, I’m, it’s more for, I think it’s more for young people personally.
Liam Shea (51:31)
Beautiful.
You’ll be fine. It’s fine. You don’t have to.
Sonya Dove (51:47)
Maybe.
Liam Shea (51:47)
Yeah,
and I think lots of hairdressers are on it. It’s not where our industry’s spending time presenting. Like there’s still people doing videos on it, but I’ve found it ends up being the place hairdressers go to waste time, but not really the, it’s like unlike Instagram that absolutely became the platform amongst hairdressers. ⁓
Sonya Dove (51:51)
Deva?
Liam Shea (52:12)
Yeah, I just don’t think TikTok is that. I think it’s where you go to watch weird videos, not where you go to promote yourself or deal with your peers. I could be completely wrong. Yeah. ⁓ that’s nice of you to say right back at you. ⁓ OK, well, thank you so much for doing this. And hopefully we can touch base before or after the next show that you do. Yeah. OK, thanks, Sonia.
Sonya Dove (52:15)
It’s not… Yeah.
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree. And you are a delight to talk to, You really are. Thank you.
Brilliant. Thank you. Thank
you. Bye.